I’m confused by anyone who demands Ukraine to cede territory and denies they can ever join NATO. Have fun seeing Crimean/Ukrainian/etc. conflicts repeat every few years while Russia keeps learning the lesson that imperialism is back in style. Are these people literal children, or Russian bots?
Ukraine agreed to give up their nukes as part of the Budapest Memorandum which Russia shat on, and the United States showed how little their security assurances were worth. The sad reality now is Ukraine could be admitted to NATO tomorrow and it would not matter one bit, because our current president believes himself a king who cannot be forced to abide any previous treaty, law, or norm of human decency.
Quite possibly the best answer to the Putin talking point (and therefore, Trump’s talking point) that he’s a dictator.
A dictator would never offer to step down. I hope the people see it for what it is. We all know Putin will be unfazed and continue anyway.
A dictator would never offer to step down.
Not good logic regardless of whether you think Zelensky is or is not a dictator. A dictator might if the terms he demanded for it were those that both parties of the conflict had already ruled out.
Making an impossible ask is hardly a sign of being reasonable or truly willing to do a thing. If I tell you I’ll give you ten million dollars but only if you can settle the mess in Palestine with the the “israeli” state and the Palestinian people permanently I’m not seriously offering you ten million dollars, my ask is impossible. No one would say it’s a good faith offer on my part.
Trump’s team has acknowledged NATO is not viable and doesn’t even want to commit US troops in the event of a ceasefire (something Russia refuses anyways), preferring it be a Europe problem and Russia categorically will not accept Ukraine in NATO. This is a FACT.
This conflict started over eastward NATO expansion, one of the primary, if not the most primary goals of Russia in their fight is to stop Ukraine from becoming part of NATO and stationing western weapons/troops there near them.
Russia is winning and the support of the US is waning. They are not going to accept having spent all that treasure and blood and taken all these sanctions and in the end not get their primary goal just to get Zelensky to step down for another person who hates Russia.
Trump will acknowledge any fucking thing Putin says you absolute simpleton.
Removed by mod
I hope the people see it for what it is.
A loser petulantly asking for something he isn’t going to get, in exchange for something that’s going to happen any way.
It’s not going to happen anyway, Ukraine can’t join NATO while they’re a Russian forces in the country, as that immediately triggers article 5 which is obviously not something NATO want to happen.
Like Hitler won his war right?
I’m once again begging liberals to learn about any war other than WW2
Or learn about that war in the first place. They think Michael Bay’s Pearl Harbor was a documentary.
I assume you’re comparing Putin to Hitler? So, how would WWII have gone if the US stopped fighting Hitler?
Much better. The US wouldn’t have had time to reward every single Nazi they could find with a job.
The same way it did except for the division of Europe in halves.
So you’re saying the USSR would have subsumed all of Europe? I could see that.
Do you think the military capabilities of Europe are up to fighting off Russia without the US? I don’t see it.
The Ukraine war is basically over at this point. Zelenskyy has zero negotiating power.
Russia won’t do anything.
There’s a massive wall of article 5. Ukraine in NATO was a red line. We tested the waters, the Ukrainians paid for it. It’s easy to fuck around and find out when it’s not your children who get sent to the frontlines. All because Shell got scammed into investing in shale reserves that never existed. Lol, now we’re left holding the bag, the Ucranians have lost an entire generation of young men and the US is now the 4th reich. I’m more worried about jingoism from the yanks than Russia doing anything. They could barely penetrate a Ukraine with its pants down. (pun not intended)
Oh I didn’t mean to imply Russia is going to do anything - I mean Europe doesn’t have the capabilities to fight a proxy war in Ukraine. If the US is dropping out then the war is over, there was never anything else keeping the war going.
He’s not getting peace, ever? Or what are you insinuating?
It’s obvious to anybody with even a minimally functional brain that Ukraine won’t join NATO and will be divided between US and Russia now.
I guess the EU means nothing to you now.
Lol the EU isnt even invited to negotiations. The US doesnt need their lap dog, they can speak for themselves.
Which is exactly how much it means to everyone else as well
I’m gonna be shocked if the EU is around in a decade. The economic situation in Europe is dire, and nationalist parties are gaining ground all across Europe. The liberal parties might hold them back for an election or two using coalitions, but eventually they will get in power as the standard of living continues to collapse. And there will likely be all kinds of ladder pulling even before that happens.
He’s not getting NATO membership and he is already on his way out as soon as the US decides so, surely you see that?
He’s implying that he will lose power anyway and is trying to use that as a bargaining chip by offering to step down. (I don’t agree, I’m just interpreting)
This is standard dictator behavior, giving up power for the benefit of their people.
I think you’re being downvoted because you’re missing the
/sIf this needs to add /s then the downvoters have room temperature IQ.
… In centigrade.
Well a meat locker is a kind of room.
They’re getting downvoted because the average Lemmy user is terminally incapable of reading the room.
To be fair, sarcasm doesn’t really convey through text
This has been known since the dawn of the internet
Funny time to do it, once he’s lost the war, had Ukrainians kidnapped straight onto the frontlines, and once negotiations are taking place without him (which might end with him in front of a jury). Not to mention member states have already taken it off the table which means “I’m not going at all”. Might as well have said his only demand is to marry the tooth fairy.
But sure, y’all just keep fetishizing yet another western puppet who called off elections but did it “for the right reasons.”
Do you support concession of the currently occupied territories?
Lmao. Might as well ask me if I condemn Hamas too. It doesn’t matter what I support or don’t support, what matters is what the people of the region support and have the ability to enforce. The DNR and LNR seceded after the US financed coup violated their democracy. Those territories were occupied from 2014 to 2022 by a US vassal, and you can tell by the endless patrols and bombing they endured.
huh?
The man can get his country into NATO, I’d say he has earned his retirement.
Zelensky offers to give up something he’s about to lose anyways in order to gain something that isn’t going to happen.
Dude just wants to snort coke and play pianos with his peen in peace.
bro just can’t wait to move to miami florida
I think he’s trying to gain not dying of sudden lead poisoning.
Brave and powerful 😭
Article with no aggressive paywalls
Is NATO membership still a valid goal to pursue?
Obviously not since the agreement amongst existing members has to be unanimous.
“Valid” as in feasible? No. The war was started to keep Ukraine out of NATO, and Ukraine wasn’t fully backed by NATO in the war because it isn’t willing to go to war with Russia just for Ukraine.
The whole war was started because the Russians consider Ukraine in nato to be their red line, and the war was lost by Ukraine because the NATO leadership never seriously considered putting Ukraine in NATO if that meant direct war with Russia.
So no, it isn’t a realistic goal at all. The war ends only when either
- The Ukrainian state collapses
- A deal is made in which Ukraine does not join NATO
- Ukraine pushes back Russian forces so much that they collapse the Russian government.
Scenario 2 seems to be the most likely outcome.
Shit, 1. ain’t looking that unlikely either, give it a few years with the amount of debt it was forced to take up.
I’m not an expert, but have read a decent amount on this. Others may have more and better info.
With that said, even if an Article 5 invocation won’t bring the US into your fight, it provides a hefty infrastructure of value to countries in it. From basing, to logistics, to intelligence, to aid, it is valuable. Now the politics of it are complicated and the US can hinder some of that value, but it still means that in Europe if Russia provides an Article 5 reason, other countries in NATO can choose to help in various forms. That’s not nothing. It’s also faster and less arduous then negotiating individual defense treaties with neighbors and others.
So yes, overall probably still worth it. Even if just as an entree into other alliances.
i think the thread starter question is more about if nato is even about to continue existing
From what I’m seeing out of Germany, NATO isn’t going anywhere. The US might not be a continuing part of it.
Also there’s still an off chance China might play a part in Ukraine. They have Putin by the short and curlies, and could offer a better deal than the US for mineral rights. It might hinge on if Trump pisses off Xi with this trade war crap, or gets in the way of him taking Taiwan.
Sure, in the way The Spiders From Mars didn’t go anywhere after Bowie fucked off.
Until the Russian government gives up on imperial conquest of other nations, yes.
