it’s like you believe you can tariff them expecting they won’t do the same. Why do you believe the rest of the world is not going to retaliate and why do you believe America can prosper without the rest of the world?

What’s the point of having a military alliance with countries you puts tariffs on? That’s unfriendly to say the least.

  • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works
    2·
    2 days ago

    Your arguments will require more nuance than “I’m leftist who thinks guns and killing is bad”.

    You don’t think the world was better off after US intervention in WWII? Don’t you think more lives would’ve been saved if the allies had been stronger sooner?

    The defense of Ukraine is the most justified use of armament in a very long time.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
      1·
      2 days ago

      As I said, that is the one, singular time in the last 80 years of war that military intervention benefitted anyone in any way. Every conflict is “the most justified use of armament in a very long time.” Y’all just think you’re special because you’re living in the present and think everyone in the past was just dumb, it’s hubris. Bush went into Afghanistan with like a 90% approval rating. There was near-universal agreement that the conflict was justified. 20 years later and millions dead, we have nothing whatsoever to show for it.

      I was alive when that war started, and I was part of that 10% who never approved of Bush, and people accused me of being a terrorist sympathizer when I said I thought we should turn the other cheek. The same sort of people now call me a Russian bot or Putin shill for advocating diplomatic solutions now. But I was completely vindicated and they were all dead wrong.

      It’s funny that you can’t help but turn to the WWII example even after I preempted it. It’s because it’s an easy, go to justification that you can just plop on to any war ever. If that’s all it takes to get you to support a war, you would’ve supported Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Vietnam, and Korea. The historical record of “wars justified by pointing to WWII” is absolutely abysmal.

      But sure, I’ll grant that there are times when the use of force is justified, when you can make a clear argument as to how the average person will materially benefit from it. You can’t do that with this war, except by plugging in the generic WWII line, which is bullshit now just as it always is. The reality is that quality of life is not very different between Ukraine and Russia, it’s just a question of which group of capitalists gets to exploit people.

      Again, I want to make the point that regardless of whether you agree or disagree, there are a lot of people who have soured on the idea of “benevolent interventionism” and on this conflict specifically. I’d also mention that I predicted Americans would eventually lost interest in the conflict and move on, as is happening now. We never had a real material stake in the conflict, Russia doesn’t pose an existential threat, and Americans are easily excitable but have goldfish memories. Enthusiasm was always going to wane so unless the conflict was resolved quickly it was always going to result in a loss, and the only question was how long the meat grinder would have to keep running before people could accept it.

      • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works
        2·
        2 days ago

        I’m impressed with how much you need to type to say absolutely nothing of substance. The comparison to WWII is there because it’s the most apt, Putin even copy/pasted the same excuses Hitler used to invade Czechoslovakia. So if you have a problem with the completely adequate comparison to WWII go complain to him or maybe just inform yourself on both conflicts. Otherwise your insinuation that this is no different from anyone else who was incorrect about their reasoning for war just ends up being empty garbage.

        Americans at least had to get hit with 9/11 to go mad enough to start an unjustified war in Iraq, what’s Russia’s excuse?

        “It’s not an existential threat”, do things need to become existential before you tend to them? What kind of brainlet argument is that?

        Americans are losing interest in the defense of Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working its way through the smooth brains in the states. Nobody is surprised.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
          1·
          2 days ago

          Putin even copy/pasted the same excuses Hitler used to invade Czechoslovakia.

          I never realized that Czechoslovakia had a coup which banned opposition parties, leading to rebels to seize control of the Sudetenland who then requested aid from Germany in the ensuing civil war.

          Otherwise your insinuation that this is no different from anyone else who was incorrect about their reasoning for war just ends up being empty garbage.

          Hubris. “Everyone else in the past 80 years who said the things I’m saying now has been wrong, but I’m obviously correct, because This Time It’s Different.”

          It should at the very least give you significant pause, especially considering that the people responsible for lying the public into Iraq and Afghanistan not only faced no consequences for it whatsoever, but, in many cases, are the exact same people drumming up support for Ukraine. Fool me once twice three times four times five times six times, shame on me.

          “It’s not an existential threat”, do things need to become existential before you tend to them? What kind of brainlet argument is that?

          Missing the point. The point is, since it’s not an existential threat, Americans aren’t going to remain invested in the long term. And the war could go on indefinitely. In the face of that kind of stalemate, it’s inevitable that Americans will lose interest and throw in the towel. So, we shouldn’t get involved in what could be another 20 year long commitment like Afghanistan if we’re not prepared to follow through, instead we should persue diplomatic solutions. The justification of the conflict is irrelevant, it’s better to not fight a justified conflict at all than to fight a justified conflict for a little bit and then give up after a bunch of people have died. Or to put it a different way, a war cannot be justified unless it’s possible to win.

          Americans are losing interest in the defense of Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working its way through the smooth brains in the states.

          Blah blah magic Russian propaganda. We have our own propaganda, there’s no reason to think Russian propaganda would be so much more effective than our own, it’s just a talking point and not a serious explanation.

          • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works
            2·
            2 days ago

            I never realized that Czechoslovakia had a coup which banned opposition parties, leading to rebels to seize control of the Sudetenland who then requested aid from Germany in the ensuing civil war.

            You say this as if it justifies invading a country and they didn’t go on to take the whole thing.

            Hubris. “Everyone else in the past 80 years who said the things I’m saying now has been wrong, but I’m obviously correct, because This Time It’s Different.”

            “People have been wrong in the past, therefore you’re wrong now” You’re the one failing to prove why Ukraine’s defense isn’t actually justified.

            Blah blah magic Russian propaganda. We have our own propaganda, there’s no reason to think Russian propaganda would be so much more effective than our own, it’s just a talking point and not a serious explanation

            Call it magic all you want, the facts say otherwise. Look at my other comment for links with examples. If you can’t see any reason our propaganda wouldn’t be as effective against an authoritarian state that blocks sites like YouTube/Wikipedia then go read more or something idk.