Doesn’t it work differently for different species or something? It wouldn’t turn a human invisible because it only turns hobbitis invisible. But it would definitely still alert the wraiths.
That’s my understanding of it but I’m probably wrong.
It does, in fact, turn humans invisible too. Isildur being the obvious example, but even the nine rings given to humans had that effect, shifting them to the spiritual / unseen world. That’s a whole different ramble, but for now, let’s sum it up that there is an unseen world not everyone can sense and influence, but the Maiar (including Sauron) are inherently spiritual beings that took physical shape in the seen world in order to interact with it.
For Sauron, so much of his power was poured into the One Ring that he was no longer able to take physical form without it (though he evidently still had some ability to twist minds even without it). Through the Ring, he had also dominated the nine human Ring bearers and bound them to him, moving them into the spiritual world. Given that they were originally of the seen world, they could take physical form more easily than him, but as his power waned, so did theirs and they eventually disappeared until his power grew once more and allowed them to reappear.
The reason they could still “see” Frodo is that they were attuned to the unseen and could sense him there, with their power over it manifesting in them stabbing his physical form even though it was invisible to mortal eyes.
There is still the question of the Dwarven rings. They were forged first, and it’s possible they weren’t as refined yet, though the dwarves are also described as more resilient at resisting the dominating effect. My guess is that the fact they were created by Aulë, Smith of the Valar, rendered them less susceptible to the craft of a lesser spirit (Sauron), but I have no evidence.
Sauron still has a physical form during the events of LOTR. Frodo sees him through the tower window when walking towards Mount Doom, and Gollum remarks he was personally tortured by him, and that his hand has 4 fingers.
Dwarves seem resistant to the rings because of their mechanical nature. As you described, they were first designed by Aule instead of Eru, and then given free will, so that gives them a more “automaton” nature than the other free peoples
Invisibility is incidental; it’s a side effect for those who do not exists in the unseen realm. It was created to dominate those who had the lesser rings of power; the dwarves proved too resilient, and the elves took theirs off before they could be influenced. The ring is a tool of domination, and enhances the bearer’s natural abilities. It may have allowed Aragorn for example, to inspire people to follow him as he became the next great dictator. It is a more subtle magic. In the books, Gandalf describes this process if he were to claim the ring; that he would build up a great kingdom to overthrow Sauron militarily and replace him as Middle Earth’s tyrant.
The one ring gives the wearer the power of what the wearer defines as power. Frodo turns invisible because for a hobbit not being noticed means safety. The ring tells Sam that he could plant as many Apple trees as he likes, even plastering whole middle earth.
In this moment the ring probably tells to Boromir that he could rebuild Gondor to old strength and he might be able to (before giving in to saurons influence).
I see this explanation very often but have not encountered textual evidence (either for or against this hypothesis). The feats we see from every ringbearer (be it the Sauron, the Witch King, Galadriel, Gandalf and even Frodo) can more easily be explained by the rings just enhancing magical feats of all kinds, and maybe the elven ones are better at preservation magic. I wouldn’t be surprised if I was wrong, though
It definitely tells them what they want to hear, but I don’t think it’s lying. It could totally do everything it says. However it will just straight up yeet itself at the first opportunity to get back to Sauron.
Is there textual evidence for it granting powers other than invisibility and immortality though? I see this topic come up every few years and my recollection is that it typically sort of comes back to “we aren’t sure.”
Some other comment mentiones how it makes Frodo more influential and intimidating as they approach Mordor, allowing him to control Gollum with just his presence and voice. This isn’t very well portrayed in the movies. There is also mention of how a bunch of Orcs are scared off at the sight of Sam’s shadow when he is carrying the ring, as it appears to them as the shadow of a powerful elf lord.
As with other magic in Tolkiens universe, it is very diffuse. It grants the user great power, but the details of how it does so are very hard to pin down. We only get subtle hints.
I think there’s something in the text that says you have to be powerful enough to utilize it which is why it is somewhat tempting for characters like Gandalf. Even though it would also corrupt him.
But do we have reason to believe that it’s not just giving them lies to get them to touch it? Is it tempting because it can do things or is it tempting because it tells people it can do things?
It wouldn’t turn a human invisible because it only turns hobbitis invisible.
See: the intro to the first movie. Isildur, after his victory at Mt Doom, uses the Ring to turn invisible in attempts to escape a group of orcs that attacked his party.
Had forgotten about that, I always tough it just gave power to the user, what power? That’s depends on the users desires and ambitions, and because Hobbits are not a lot into desires and ambitions, the ring wasn’t particularly powerful in them, neither had a lot of power to corrupt them.
The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. ‘change’ viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
So the Ring… does things. One of which is pulling the bearer into the wraith world. I believe the reason Sauron doesn’t turn invisible is that he is already of the wraith world (implying he is invisible without the Ring, but I have no confirmation of that).
This is one of the things I like about Tolkiens approach to magic: It’s very diffuse.
We understand that Gandalf and Saruman are powerful, but it is very unclear exactly how they use their power. We don’t see them bringing down castle walls or throwing lightning bolts. Some rare examples are when Gandalf breaks the bridge the Balrog is on, and when he breaks Sarumans staff. None of these are feats of magic that would lead you to think they are by far among the most powerful beings in middle earth.
When Gandalf battles the Balrog, the books state something like “they battled for three days”, without specifying how a physically frail (at least by appearance) Gandalf could defeat a Balrog.
With the ring(s), we just learn that they “grant the user immense power”, without ever learning exactly how Sauron would become unstoppable if he had the ring. I think it makes the story great, because it makes the story inherently character-driven, with magic being a diffuse “force” in the background rather than concrete abilities someone like Gandalf could use to teleport, shield someone, or set a building of fire.
I can’t remember where I heard this, but I recall that the wizards were basically constantly holding back their power as part of their existence in middle earth. They could do wild stuff, but the idea is to not interfere with the progression of the world too much, much like a star trek crew
One thing I’ve noticed is that the more answers you give, the less magic that ‘magic’ seems.
Stormlight Archives and the Cosmere are the best examples I can give of this. The magic systems that Sanderson has created are awesome, but the more you learn the more it becomes like science rather than magic. Not only does it become more like science, it becomes far more important to the actual narrative. Sanderson doesn’t capture the same kind of mystic, arcane nature that Tolkien’s magic does - and I think it’s entirely because we just don’t have answers about what magic actually is.
Not to say that Sanderson is a bad author, by any means - I love his work. Magic is cool because you don’t know how it works, though. Otherwise it’s just a power system/ platform for cool stuff happening. I’m all for it, but the former is the reason I can love and enjoy the latter.
I agree. I think that’s why I like Kate Griffin’s Matthew Swift series (and the other novels she sets in the same ‘verse). The general rules of the magic system are explained, but the magic still feels wild and mysterious and… well, magical.
I seem to remember that a blizzard is also attributed to Saruman at one point. What I love though is that it’s not Saruman waving his arms and chanting some formula to cause the blizzard, but rather a situation where a blizzard was already possible and Saruman kind of “nudging” nature to ensure the blizzard hits in the right place and is especially violent. In a sense, it feels like the blizzard happens just because Saruman wants it to happen.
I also seem to remember that it’s also implied that the ride of the Rohirim to Helms Deep should have been near impossible, but because Gandalf was with them they had the speed and stamina to make it. He doesn’t explicitly do anything, but kind of “wills” them to be faster.
You’re pretty much spot on. It’s also why in the movies and books, the Ring Wraiths generally just look like black cloaks; not even dark shadowy figures in cloaks, literally just the black cloaks. But when Frodo puts on the ring when surrounded on Weathertop, he can clearly see their distinct faces and features, and they can immediately tell who has the ring.
Basically, Tolkein liked the invisibility ring bit in Sky Island and decided to rip it off for The Hobbit. Then, when he made a sequel to The Hobbit he threw in a bunch of important-sounding bullshit to paper over the fact that his macguffin needed to do a bunch of completely different things than what it had been established to do earlier.
Doesn’t it work differently for different species or something? It wouldn’t turn a human invisible because it only turns hobbitis invisible. But it would definitely still alert the wraiths.
That’s my understanding of it but I’m probably wrong.
It does, in fact, turn humans invisible too. Isildur being the obvious example, but even the nine rings given to humans had that effect, shifting them to the spiritual / unseen world. That’s a whole different ramble, but for now, let’s sum it up that there is an unseen world not everyone can sense and influence, but the Maiar (including Sauron) are inherently spiritual beings that took physical shape in the seen world in order to interact with it.
For Sauron, so much of his power was poured into the One Ring that he was no longer able to take physical form without it (though he evidently still had some ability to twist minds even without it). Through the Ring, he had also dominated the nine human Ring bearers and bound them to him, moving them into the spiritual world. Given that they were originally of the seen world, they could take physical form more easily than him, but as his power waned, so did theirs and they eventually disappeared until his power grew once more and allowed them to reappear.
The reason they could still “see” Frodo is that they were attuned to the unseen and could sense him there, with their power over it manifesting in them stabbing his physical form even though it was invisible to mortal eyes.
There is still the question of the Dwarven rings. They were forged first, and it’s possible they weren’t as refined yet, though the dwarves are also described as more resilient at resisting the dominating effect. My guess is that the fact they were created by Aulë, Smith of the Valar, rendered them less susceptible to the craft of a lesser spirit (Sauron), but I have no evidence.
Sauron still has a physical form during the events of LOTR. Frodo sees him through the tower window when walking towards Mount Doom, and Gollum remarks he was personally tortured by him, and that his hand has 4 fingers.
Dwarves seem resistant to the rings because of their mechanical nature. As you described, they were first designed by Aule instead of Eru, and then given free will, so that gives them a more “automaton” nature than the other free peoples
Invisibility is incidental; it’s a side effect for those who do not exists in the unseen realm. It was created to dominate those who had the lesser rings of power; the dwarves proved too resilient, and the elves took theirs off before they could be influenced. The ring is a tool of domination, and enhances the bearer’s natural abilities. It may have allowed Aragorn for example, to inspire people to follow him as he became the next great dictator. It is a more subtle magic. In the books, Gandalf describes this process if he were to claim the ring; that he would build up a great kingdom to overthrow Sauron militarily and replace him as Middle Earth’s tyrant.
The one ring gives the wearer the power of what the wearer defines as power. Frodo turns invisible because for a hobbit not being noticed means safety. The ring tells Sam that he could plant as many Apple trees as he likes, even plastering whole middle earth.
In this moment the ring probably tells to Boromir that he could rebuild Gondor to old strength and he might be able to (before giving in to saurons influence).
I see this explanation very often but have not encountered textual evidence (either for or against this hypothesis). The feats we see from every ringbearer (be it the Sauron, the Witch King, Galadriel, Gandalf and even Frodo) can more easily be explained by the rings just enhancing magical feats of all kinds, and maybe the elven ones are better at preservation magic. I wouldn’t be surprised if I was wrong, though
The ring tells people lies though, no?
It definitely tells them what they want to hear, but I don’t think it’s lying. It could totally do everything it says. However it will just straight up yeet itself at the first opportunity to get back to Sauron.
Is there textual evidence for it granting powers other than invisibility and immortality though? I see this topic come up every few years and my recollection is that it typically sort of comes back to “we aren’t sure.”
Some other comment mentiones how it makes Frodo more influential and intimidating as they approach Mordor, allowing him to control Gollum with just his presence and voice. This isn’t very well portrayed in the movies. There is also mention of how a bunch of Orcs are scared off at the sight of Sam’s shadow when he is carrying the ring, as it appears to them as the shadow of a powerful elf lord.
As with other magic in Tolkiens universe, it is very diffuse. It grants the user great power, but the details of how it does so are very hard to pin down. We only get subtle hints.
I think there’s something in the text that says you have to be powerful enough to utilize it which is why it is somewhat tempting for characters like Gandalf. Even though it would also corrupt him.
But do we have reason to believe that it’s not just giving them lies to get them to touch it? Is it tempting because it can do things or is it tempting because it tells people it can do things?
See: the intro to the first movie. Isildur, after his victory at Mt Doom, uses the Ring to turn invisible in attempts to escape a group of orcs that attacked his party.
Had forgotten about that, I always tough it just gave power to the user, what power? That’s depends on the users desires and ambitions, and because Hobbits are not a lot into desires and ambitions, the ring wasn’t particularly powerful in them, neither had a lot of power to corrupt them.
What the ring does:
So the Ring… does things. One of which is pulling the bearer into the wraith world. I believe the reason Sauron doesn’t turn invisible is that he is already of the wraith world (implying he is invisible without the Ring, but I have no confirmation of that).
This is one of the things I like about Tolkiens approach to magic: It’s very diffuse.
We understand that Gandalf and Saruman are powerful, but it is very unclear exactly how they use their power. We don’t see them bringing down castle walls or throwing lightning bolts. Some rare examples are when Gandalf breaks the bridge the Balrog is on, and when he breaks Sarumans staff. None of these are feats of magic that would lead you to think they are by far among the most powerful beings in middle earth.
When Gandalf battles the Balrog, the books state something like “they battled for three days”, without specifying how a physically frail (at least by appearance) Gandalf could defeat a Balrog.
With the ring(s), we just learn that they “grant the user immense power”, without ever learning exactly how Sauron would become unstoppable if he had the ring. I think it makes the story great, because it makes the story inherently character-driven, with magic being a diffuse “force” in the background rather than concrete abilities someone like Gandalf could use to teleport, shield someone, or set a building of fire.
I can’t remember where I heard this, but I recall that the wizards were basically constantly holding back their power as part of their existence in middle earth. They could do wild stuff, but the idea is to not interfere with the progression of the world too much, much like a star trek crew
One thing I’ve noticed is that the more answers you give, the less magic that ‘magic’ seems.
Stormlight Archives and the Cosmere are the best examples I can give of this. The magic systems that Sanderson has created are awesome, but the more you learn the more it becomes like science rather than magic. Not only does it become more like science, it becomes far more important to the actual narrative. Sanderson doesn’t capture the same kind of mystic, arcane nature that Tolkien’s magic does - and I think it’s entirely because we just don’t have answers about what magic actually is.
Not to say that Sanderson is a bad author, by any means - I love his work. Magic is cool because you don’t know how it works, though. Otherwise it’s just a power system/ platform for cool stuff happening. I’m all for it, but the former is the reason I can love and enjoy the latter.
That’s basically the difference between hard magic systems (Sanderson) and soft magic systems (Tolkien)
Why use many word when few word do trick?
(You’re right, and thank you — I just thought it was funny that all I said was boiled down to soft and hard, accurately)
I agree. I think that’s why I like Kate Griffin’s Matthew Swift series (and the other novels she sets in the same ‘verse). The general rules of the magic system are explained, but the magic still feels wild and mysterious and… well, magical.
Magic explained is just science.
Some famous quote or something, can’t remember where I read it.
Saruman did cause a landslide/avalanche which was pretty nifty.
I seem to remember that a blizzard is also attributed to Saruman at one point. What I love though is that it’s not Saruman waving his arms and chanting some formula to cause the blizzard, but rather a situation where a blizzard was already possible and Saruman kind of “nudging” nature to ensure the blizzard hits in the right place and is especially violent. In a sense, it feels like the blizzard happens just because Saruman wants it to happen.
I also seem to remember that it’s also implied that the ride of the Rohirim to Helms Deep should have been near impossible, but because Gandalf was with them they had the speed and stamina to make it. He doesn’t explicitly do anything, but kind of “wills” them to be faster.
You’re pretty much spot on. It’s also why in the movies and books, the Ring Wraiths generally just look like black cloaks; not even dark shadowy figures in cloaks, literally just the black cloaks. But when Frodo puts on the ring when surrounded on Weathertop, he can clearly see their distinct faces and features, and they can immediately tell who has the ring.
Basically, Tolkein liked the invisibility ring bit in Sky Island and decided to rip it off for The Hobbit. Then, when he made a sequel to The Hobbit he threw in a bunch of important-sounding bullshit to paper over the fact that his macguffin needed to do a bunch of completely different things than what it had been established to do earlier.
Apparently it worked.
No, I’m pretty sure the One Ring was inspired by the Kalevala — but it’s ok. You don’t have to like Tolkien’s work.
The power of voodoo
You do?
Do what?
Remind me of the babe
Generally it will work on any mortal except dwarves.
Why didnt the dwarves take the ring to Mordor?
They can’t ride eagles. They are Steelers fans.
Fair enough lol