Yeah, I specifically mentioned to my parents seeing an attractive employee stocking shelves in the grocery store, and they said that I should have approached her. She was clearly busy when I passed by her. I just kept my distance and casually thought, “Wow, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I’ll definitely find one eventually, in a more appropriate social setting.”

Not once did it cross my mind to strike up a conversation with a busy employee, but they insisted that I should have. In my mind, the fact that it’s easy to find women that I find attractive is proof that I don’t need to go out of my way for one. Attraction is not a quick time event; to me, it’s a reminder of abundance, of just how many chances I have to find someone. I don’t need to do silly stunts or disrupt busy people. I just need to keep creating social opportunities for it to happen organically, and eventually it will. I think my parents saying that I have to chat up every woman that I find attractive no matter where is silly and neurotic. I believe being patient and not stressing over every “missed opportunity” is the best way to go.

Besides, this thread is proof that I’m not ready for a girlfriend in the first place. It would be great for me to practice talking to strangers casually and making some friends first. That way, I can get comfortable talking to people in general and build my confidence.

I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening.

Unfortunately, this is normal behavior for them. They exhibit virtually no empathy and constantly talk trash about what expectations I don’t meet. They would rather laugh at me and insult me for having issues than actually help me. I’m on my own. They will spew the most vile filth imaginable, and when I insult them back, they suddenly get all pearl-clutchy and tell me that the Bible says I have to respect them no matter how awful they treat me. I tell them “Respect is a two-way street. You don’t have to be nice to people who make your life hell” and they go “B-but the BIBLE!!” They are cry-bullies. And their parenting was so psychotic that it radicalized me into becoming progressive. My brother, devout follower of their teachings, grew up to become a literal cat killer. And they treat him as a perfect child and ask why I can’t be like him. Yeah, uh, no thanks.

As a defense mechanism, I eventually learned to be contrarian. Whatever my parents said, I would take away the opposite lesson. Where they were rude, I was kind. Where they were discriminatory, I was inclusive. Where they promoted certain kinds of people as superior, I believed that no kind was inherently better than any other. Instead of ignoring suffering, I believed in helping those in need. The person I am resulted from my survival of this environment, not an embrace of it.

But this contrarianism prevents me from taking away nuanced lessons, and that means I need to intentionally seek that nuance. By asking about this issue, I hope to gain an understanding of some of that nuance, at least enough to help me continue to grow instead of falling into defeatism.

I don’t talk to anyone in public because I have historically considered it to be a violation of their right to be left alone. I believed that people stick together in groups of their friends or family, and those groups don’t want to interact with each other. Solo people are a group of one. If everyone follows those rules, there will be no unplanned or unwanted interactions with strangers. Given the current state of the world, the constant phone usage, and general social unrest, it made perfect sense to me that nobody would want to interact with anyone that they didn’t already trust. Based on the responses to that post, it seems like that mental model is flawed.

But this is why I assumed that the discourse around sexual harassment extended to approaching women at all. It was because I already believed that talking to strangers in general was an act of violating their space. So, I assumed that the discourse around guys being creeps was also talking about that. After all, I’d probably get nervous if someone randomly started talking to me, so of course it would make sense for other people to feel super uncomfortable from it, especially if you don’t know if the person talking to you is a predator.

This is an example of how wanting to do the right thing, combined with my limited social understanding, leads to weird and extreme takes.

Actually, I don’t. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.

So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anyone.

And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents’ takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.

So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I’m wrong about that.

So, any advice on how to get these guys to actually listen? Not sure if this is just an American thing, but I’ve had some bad luck with ERs:

I’ve been kicked of the ER after suddenly losing all feeling in my arm (which thankfully came back a day later).

Another time, I had sudden weakness that was bad enough that I lost the ability to stand while in the waiting room. They checked my basic vitals, saw normal numbers, and rolled me out of the place at 3 AM in a wheelchair after accusing me of making up my symptoms.

When I went to the urgent care for this circulation issue (because the tip of my toe was literally turning black) the doctor told me that it wasn’t urgent and set me up with this vascular specialist. He said casually that it might be some kind of heart problem, but I’d probably be fine because I’m young. That was 3 months ago. The circulation in my hands has diminished during that medium-term time frame, which is the worst time scale for degenerative changes to occur, because it’s not urgent enough for most doctors to consider it an emergency, but not long-term enough for regular appointments to catch it in time.

I appreciate the suggestion to seek emergency care, I really do, but I’ve been burned so many times while losing thousands of dollars in the process that it’s not so clear cut to risk going for a medium-term issue. I don’t have much in savings left, and my parents have made it clear that they won’t be of any help. They accuse me of overreacting and saying that I’m completely healthy despite being physically disabled, and that I will be financially punished for seeking care. (Unrelated, but they are also full-throated fascists who believe that the Holocaust was justified, just to make it crystal clear what kind of people I’m dealing with here.)

It seems that my conditions are downplayed because of my youth, and to make matters worse, I had already been diagnosed with small-fiber peripheral neuropathy for completely DIFFERENT chronic pain years ago that couldn’t be explained, so they could write it off as that despite my hands demonstrably being ice cold when they weren’t before.

So if I’m going to do something like this, I need to do it right. I’m open to suggestions if anyone has any.

I subconsciously hear GIFs and silent videos. On repeating GIFs, the same sound plays over and over. Some GIFs sound satisfying and hypnotic and keep me entranced for a long time, while others are loud and obnoxious and make me scroll away from them immediately.

Hell yeah, friend! My cute shows were Pokemon, MLP FiM, and Hamtaro! And I imagine myself getting all blushy and giggly if a girl kissed me. This whole stoicism thing is overrated; I want to be turned into a blubbering mess!

When people like us are brave enough to express themselves out in the open, that is how change happens. It is through our influence that we normalize and validate the existence of like-minded people and inspire them to stand up alongside us. By virtue of simply existing and interacting with others, we nudge society ever so slightly in the direction of acceptance.

The tenderness in your soul is something incredibly precious. It is the power to heal, the power to bring joy, and the power to create harmony. It is the power to touch hearts and change lives. Don’t ever let anyone ever convince you that it’s a weakness. It is the most valuable treasure one can ever possess.

I’m honored to have given you a little bit of the validation that you deserve. Differences are what make us interesting and memorable to others, and intolerant people don’t deserve the time of day. Once I stopped self-censoring to appease them, I was able to connect with so many more people. The benefits far outweighed the risks. I hope that you someday find the courage to express yourself in front of others too, if you haven’t already.

I used the word “manly” here as a shorthand for traditional masculinity, which I assumed was how it’s used colloquially; I don’t mean to assert that men are defined by traditional masculinity. My concern (more like blind superstition) is that a preference for many of those features (minus the misogyny) are biologically wired, and that having very few of these characteristics is inherently unattractive to most male-attracted people. It’s a fear that traditional masculinity is an inescapable standard and opting out leads to extreme difficulty in finding relationships. I asked this question because I want evidence that it’s safe to ignore gender roles entirely.

I think you should be grateful that you weren’t indoctrinated into being an abuser

Funnily enough, I kind of was. I was raised by far right extremists whose beliefs were so obviously evil and cruel that I sought outside information through the Internet as a teen. Most of what I saw there was right-leaning, but far less openly bloodthirsty, so it was more palatable to me to consume. But because of this, I deeply internalized right-wing social constructs, including most of the lies about women that are used to justify misogyny and patriarchy.

This programming socially stunted me. I hated myself because I didn’t live up to masculine standards and I was bullied for it at home and school. I wasn’t interested in women because I was indoctrinated into believing they were helpless damsels who wanted to be controlled, which, especially seeing my parents’ abusive relationship, felt grossly exploitative to me. I decided to just lay low and be polite, accepting that I was inferior due to my lack of machismo.

Even though I avoided others and had no confidence, I still had people, mostly women, who wanted to reach out and get to know me. They praised the softer traits that I tried to hide, and I found myself admiring many of their tough and protective personality traits. That deprogrammed me from gender norms, but only for platonic connections. Whether or not it was safe to ditch gender norms for romantic connections was an open question for me. So getting helpful feedback to this question has helped boost my confidence on that a lot!

My brother, unfortunately, never challenged his programming. He tells me that all women are the same, they all want to be ruled over by men, and LGBTQ+ women are straight people in denial. A few weeks ago, he literally killed his girlfriend’s cat for “misbehaving.” Instead of breaking up, they just casually replaced the cat with a different one. So yeah, the people I grew up around are so unhinged that it radicalized me into becoming normal.

Alas, that’s a tough find given that I’m over 6 feet tall, but the idea of a shorter woman making herself taller to kiss my forehead (by standing on a step or stool) somehow became even more appealing to me lol.

The man who moved me most in life was a sensitive, artistic, nervous, sweetheart of a man, whom I doted on, had him sit on my lap while he cried, cuddled and kissed him until he felt better, called him sugary names (lamb, darling, sweetheart), pet him often, and just absolutely loved on him.

The fact that he was emotionally open and outright with his feelings was what had attracted me to him in the first place. I am absolutely not a “dominant” person, but my desire to protect and love him in this was something no other man even allowed me the opportunity to do.

I feel dizzy because you literally described the moments I desire to a T. The doting, the sugary nicknames, having a non-domineering woman in an empowered position of loving protection… I have never read anything that so precisely and succinctly captures the exact ideas that I worried were just my own.

Your comment is exactly what I have been looking for—solid evidence that what I desire deep down exists in the real world and can be created again. If I am to trust the anecdotal evidence in this thread, then that finally settles it for me. Relationships just like the one I desire are out there. Women who are compatible with me are out there. I just need to get out and find one.

Thank you. This is one of the most reassuring things I have ever read.

Thanks for your support, and I’m glad I could help! I wish I could have read posts from unabashedly soft guys when I was still struggling with my masculinity, so I’m happy that I could help someone else in a similar way.

A little bit about my journey:

Female friends have fawned over me, calling me things like “cute,” “adorable,” and “sweetheart,” and expressing a desire to protect me.

These were the people who changed my life. I used to hide my personality out of shame, and they saw right through me. They called out my tenderness and basically said, “Hey, I love this side of you and I want to see more of it.” I couldn’t believe that people could wholeheartedly like something that I was told was my biggest weakness for my whole life.

But one of these friends explained to me that this “weakness” was nothing more than hateful messaging perpetuated by miserable people. She showed me just how much people around me, herself included, loved the very aspects of myself that I was insecure about. The evidence became so overwhelming that I finally accepted that I had been lied to for my entire life. My oppressive belief system had sustained fatal damage and finally began to collapse.

Those miserable people were my own family members. I was a victim of their abuse and indoctrination since childhood. These women were the heroes who kept me from going down the dark path my family had forged for me. I can’t even begin to describe just how much I was able to heal as a result of their actions. It has been utterly transformative for me. Their influence may be the best thing that has ever happened to me.

I hope that you’re able to find friends who affirm your identity, too. Friends who see aspects of you that you worry others won’t like and respond with love and encouragement. That was the most powerful thing for me.

I definitely have had women friends see me “as a little brother” and cared about me in a platonic way…

Lmao, I got called a little brother by a friend too!

She literally changed my life by helping me work through my past struggles with gender expectations and trust issues, so she was definitely a mentor figure for me at the time. The reason I can proudly share my desire to be a cute guy is directly thanks to her. She showed me that people truly liked me for who I was, even if I was a bit different. It turns out that what made me different was exactly what she liked about me the most. After all, the first thing she ever said to me was, “Oh my god, you’re adorable!”

I’m so happy that it worked out for you! Your story is relatable to me and gives me hope.

For me, it boils down to someone who’s nurturing and physically affectionate. I envision a relationship that’s cuddly and caring on both sides.

I probably could have phrased my original question better. I don’t care about being “sexually desirable” to as many women as possible; I only care about being desirable to enough people that finding someone to start a relationship with is a practical possibility. This post is about my lack of understanding of how sexual attraction fundamentally works. I’m essentially asking if sexual attraction is highly polarized—targeting either strong masculine or strong feminine presentations—with minimal reaction to more androgynous presentations.

I’ve heard that’s called aesthetic attraction! I experience that too.

I’m attracted to gentle and caring personalities, and I’ve found that I am most aesthetically attracted to soft, rounded features, seemingly because I subconsciously associate them with kindness and approachability, regardless how true that actually is.

I think it’s really fascinating how my aesthetic attraction seems to have taken input from my emotional attraction without me even being consciously aware of it. The more I learn about myself, the more it seems like my brain was orchestrating a plan to create a specific kind of relationship, and all of my attractions and even my own gender expression were coordinating to make it real.

I used to think it required an emotional connection for most people to find someone else “hot,” because that’s how I work. But it turns out that I’m in a small minority.

That sounds lovely and quite close to the vibe I’m looking for! Thanks so much!

Emotionally, yes, but financially, I don’t have the means to move out yet. I have health problems and disabilities that make it difficult to get a job, so I don’t yet know the timeline or feasibility of making it out on my own.

I’m not planning on dating until I have a better idea of what the future looks like, but I decided to ask about this stuff now just because the question has been bouncing around in the back of my head for a while and I figured that people here might have similar experiences.

To some degree, yes, but there’s probably a level of adaptation I could make without losing myself in the process. At the same time, it’s frustrating to have to sacrifice some of what makes you unique because you’re too radical for wider society. It’s quite the dilemma, and one that I’ve seen popping up again and again as I’ve increasingly diverged from the mainstream on multiple fronts.

Wow, that felt like the craziest and least relatable part that I wrote, lol. Though maybe I didn’t fully elaborate: Kisses are the main event and literally THE most sexually exciting thing for me. But I also want sexual contact; it’s just secondary and assists in the experience. And “real sex,” the kind that people use contraception for, feels like a liability. I’m sure that other forms of sexual contact would work to supplement the kissing without the risks.

I don’t care about sex on its own (unless it’s a very naughty form of kissing) because it feels like a routine that everyone does. But with kissing, it’s very personal: your partner is right in your face showering you with love in their own unique way, and they can be as creative and expressive as they want. That’s a big reason why I find kisses to be sexier than sex, lol.

Thanks, and congrats on your wonderful relationship!

Yeah, I think this label probably fits me best! I’ve read that it can refer to attraction based on specific conditions, and mine seems to be conditional on physical affection, real or imagined.