The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
First, they need to find better things to worry about. pressing this is exactly how you end up with regrettable relationships. Second, ignore the gender. Treat women like people. If a situation comes up, like someone makes a scene at the front of a line you are both in, strike up a conversation about that. See where it goes. Lasting things occur organically. That being said, “she’s hot and I want to be inside her” is not a good enough reason to strike up a conversation with someone. Appreciate the sight but don’t try to capitalize on it.
Not putting some special stigma on it makes it less uncomfortable for both of you, and perhaps somewhat ironically, a little more likely that you do eventually get to be inside of her.
It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.
If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.
Instructions unclear, now paying for a gay wedding.
Human existence is becoming more and more controlled as we lose our autonomy. And either waste our time broken alone or slaving away at a job that doesn’t benefit us. Other countries have things like third spaces and culture unlike the United States which has no culture. We don’t have the time or the money for culture. So what I’m trying to say is you have to make time to have genuine experiences doing things you like to do in order to stumble upon someone and have a casual conversation. Even these interactions are monetized via apps or whatever. Ad revenue. And these companies that get in between us and our natural experiences are also the same companies that blow up children in other countries. Other than that it is always running to or running from something. The Capitalist meddle too much in our lives. Everyone I know has had divorced parents. And now they want to replace us with artificial intelligence, which is really just our collective work and our human echo of recorded history and contribution. If they literally could just pick us up and bang our body parts together, they would. There is a reason why the birth rate is declining. Things are the way they are for good reasons. We are so separated from nature that we can’t feel each other’s vibes. I think the kids these days call it vibes. We are all just codependent and not self-actualized. We have lost our sovereignty, our autonomy, and now we just kind of are pushed and pulled in directions to the point where possibly we disassociate. You can go along with all this stuff for a while, but eventually it just snaps in your mind breaks. And they think they’re going to draft us to go fight another World War. Just throw me in a box. It’s just the same as the other box that I live in. I mean, what kind of future do our future children have? America is not a sexy place. Capitalism is not a sexy system. And now the whole world is capitalistic in nature. There are no alternatives anymore. and the Capitalist have gotten better and better at manipulating all of us. We don’t have the time or the money to even plan and fight back. I’m old enough now to see the patterns between the two political parties in the United States. And I will tell you, unless you’re kind of like a cult follower of your political party, they will just disappoint you and miss the mark by a mile. They don’t work for us. They work for the shareholders. So all that kids have to deal with these days. All these elements, even though they might not acknowledge them, they play a role in mating rituals. You shouldn’t have to run up to pretty women to get them to talk to you, or vice-inversal. Every good experience I have had has been through some form of leisure. The word I can think of that reminds me of the current state of things is cringe or icky. Picking up on people’s body language. Things that are subtle that take time to grow like a garden. Building relationships, maintaining those relationships, having meaningful conversation. And when trust is built, maybe let loose. I don’t know man, it just gets harder. And then you stop caring. Do you want hope? Or the truth?Your parents sold you out and their only concern is if you’re gay.
I think you have a point, but also you’ve cranked that point to 11. Possibly 12.
Like yes, women can be really infuriated by how often they get hit on. I know the main reason my wife wanted a stereotypical wedding ring with a single diamond was that “it’ll keep the flies away”
But also… people interact with you in public. It’s like… a property of public spaces. Indeed talking to my wife in a public space is how we met.
The way you make it sound from your description would be that asking some woman directions would be a social fopah. Hell, where does just “having a conversation” land for you then? If you leave without asking for a number, is it different?
There’s a difference between idle chit chat and approaching like Johnny Bravo.
Faux pas, hehe never seen it as fopah
?huh? there’s no x in foh pa. “fox paws” pls be serious sir
Im sorry, im just a goose.
I gave up because I was typing on my phone.
Woman here: I’m not annoyed if a person I don’t know talks to me, as long as a) they don’t interrupt something I’m doing to have conversation and b) they read my body language and fuck off again the moment it’s clear I’m not interested. But asking me questions when I have my headphones in to talk about inane shit while I roll my eyes? Nah.
Look at it this way, it’s the same as approaching someone in public to make a friend. Obviously, that’s not inappropriate. It’s only inappropriate if you’re treating it differently (which you shouldn’t be).
How many friends have you made cold approaching people on the street or in shops like that?
Do people often react by treating you with intense suspicion? Ngl, overly chatty/friendly strangers freak me the fuck out.
I think you should just make a habit of talking to people around you. You’re kind of putting human interaction on a pedestal and that’s just going to intimidate you and make you overthink things.
First of all, you need to understand it’s not some pre-planned thing. You should be making a point to go out to do things you like doing - not going out with the explicit agenda of just talking to people. That’s why I think the term “cold approach” is loaded, and full of shit–It inaccurately makes it sound like something negative and unnatural–In actuality you’ve done it many times before without thinking about it.
Seems you’ve gone deep into this analysis, of which none of it is actually relevant though, because you’re not talking about the root cause of your feelings. Which is that you have social anxiety.
Is this something people actually do? I’ve only made friends through shared activities, mostly class, and by meeting friends of friends.
It’s pretty clear what the consensus is here. Yes, talk with women. You can even (politely) hit on women you fancy. Based on your statement about yourself it’s unlikely you would be pushy and threatening if she said no, but still, just understand when to stop.
Next question is how to get there from where you are. You’re scared you would be seen as a threat, harassing women just by talking to them out of the blue. So you doubtless have little experience talking with women. That’s where you are.
I see two possible paths to take. Which one is right depends on why you feel that way. If it’s an emotional issue, like if you (for instance) start shaking and sweating at the thought of walking up to a woman and introducing yourself, then maybe start by talking with a therapist. They can be really helpful. On the other hand if you are just nervous because you don’t know how to talk with a woman then look into learning how to make small talk. It’s actually a skill. It’s something you can learn. And once you have learned it and practiced it enough that you are comfortable with it, then approaching and talking with a woman is just about starting and having a conversation. You can even practice with guys if it makes you more comfortable. A quick google search produces a bunch of good ideas on how to start.
Now you have homework. Learn how to carry a conversation. Learn to make people feel comfortable around you. Learn to actually be interested in other people. It shows and it makes a difference.
EDIT: In a reply to another comment you mentioned severe violence in your childhood and the resultant fear as a major deterrent in approaching people. That’s definitely something to see a therapist about. You can work through stuff like that in time. And you’ll be amazed how much more free you feel once you have.
Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you’re fine.
Yeah it’s super weird when people pick a very specific thing.
Like, imagine if someone wrote “I avoid approaching Brazilian Men With Beards in public because I believe it’s inappropriate. My parents say that it’s a necessary skill. Who is right?”
Speak to people like people. Stop thinking about what’s in their pants.
If they make eye contact and smile you can chat them up. That’s the secret. They won’t smile or look at you if they don’t want you to talk to them.
Also, don’t confuse friendliness with anything else. 😅
Got a bit tangled there bud and you’re horseshoeing
If you never approach women unless you have business with them then you’re treating them as things to have business with or romantic entanglements.
Try just treating us as people. You can have friends, you know.
As a guy, I can firmly say that I’ve never made a friend at the bank, grocery store, or coffee shop. If anyone started talking to me at one of these places, I would be very confused, and wonder why they are talking to me and what they are trying to get from me. And similarly, I have never struck up a conversation with anyone in these places - that would be super weird.
Of course, I see hot women in these places frequently, and I’d like to talk to them. Well, not really talk to them so much as fuck them. I’d like to say “hey, you have a really nice ass. Wanna bang one out in the bathroom right now?” Which is not unusual - this is just standard male sexuality. Hence why if you look on Grindr, a guy’s profile will be a picture of his asshole, and a common opener is “Hey, you in the McDonalds too? Wanna fuck in the bathroom right now?”
Unfortunately as a guy talking to a nice lady in the grocery store, that would be sexual harassment, and then I would be banned from that Safeway or whatever. So if I want to approach the girl with a nice ass, I need to have some kind of excuse - like, I dunno, what apples she’s looking at or whatever. But now it feels like I’m lying, because I don’t give a shit about apples - I just care about her nice ass.
No, no… It feels like lying because you are lying. Don’t do that. They are people and have friends and fuck and stuff like you. But at no point do they think you are a fuck dick and approach you to say that, because that is a än idiotic thing to do. Because you are a human in turn. Try to reflect on that. That both of you are human and want to fuck and at no point in that logic do any single one of you reduce the other person to a fuck object. Just learn that quick fix then you can approach them on equal terms again and actually get tail instead of whatever you are doing
No, no… It feels like lying because you are lying.
Yeah, that’s what I said.
But at no point do they think you are a fuck dick and approach you to say that
Right, that’s the problem. I wish they would. Again: see Grindr. But unfortunately, I’m not gay. Very annoying.
That both of you are human and want to fuck and at no point in that logic do any single one of you reduce the other person to a fuck object
Except that I never reduce anyone to being a fuck object. They appear in my awareness as a fuck object, with the potential for me to gain awareness of their deeper humanity later. Similarly, I do not fully appreciate the deep layers of the human experience within my cashier at McDonalds. From my point of view, they are a hamburger dispensing machine, up until the point where we form an emotional connection. And I can safely assume they are happy I see them this way, because they don’t want to see the deep layers of my humanity either - they want to see me as “faceless customer 447”, who they hand a bag to and then ignore as quickly as possible. If I went around fully appreciating the depth of the human soul in every person I looked at, I’d probably go crazy, and certainly would never get anything done.
Given that appreciating the true depth of the human soul is both time consuming and energy intensive, we must ask why we do it for any particular person. It must be because, for some particular person at some particular time, we have reason to put this time and energy in. And for random girl in the grocery store, the reason is: because she has a nice ass and I wanna fuck her. So we really just have the problem one step removed. I could be all “hey, those are some delicious looking apples.” And she’d be like “I hope so, but why the fuck are you talking to me? We’re in the grocery store, that’s weird.” And I’d say, “Because I’ve fully conceptualized the depth of your human experience and am fascinated by the minutiae of the way you’re picking your apples as just one more example of the beautiful fractal complexity of the nature of reality.” And she’d say “Okay, that’s even weirder. Are you high on mushrooms? Why are you talking to me instead of staring at the ants in the grass outside?” And of course, my honest answer must be “because you’ve got a nice ass and I wanna fuck you.”
Just learn that quick fix then you can approach them on equal terms again and actually get tail instead of whatever you are doing
I mean, “whatever I’m doing” is exactly what OP suggested in his OP. Meeting women at socially appropriate times and places (social gatherings, bars, concerts, events, etc); through my social networks and hobbies; and via online dating apps. In all of these cases, I either have an actual reason to talk to a stranger other than the fact that I want to fuck them, or else I can openly flirt with such a stranger under the assumption that this is expected and socially acceptable since the whole point of the venue is to find sexual/romantic partners. And I do this quite well. I just don’t hit on women in the grocery store.
You really, really, really need to see women as people-who-might-be-friends, and not exclusively as fuck objects.
I certainly do. I have a lot of female friends. They like me a lot. And I have several ongoing female fwbs. They also like me a lot. And I like and care about my female friends and partners a lot.
None of this changes the fact that literally the only thing I know and like about random grocery store girl is her nice ass, and this is the one and only real reason I would want to approach her. I’ve tried your suggestion before, and I have to say, it’s pretty fucked up. Because what you’re actually saying is “Your sexuality is wrong and bad, and you should be ashamed of it. You are a bad person for wanting to have sex.” So much for sex positivity and not kink shaming, lol. Turns out the most common kink of all - wanting to have sex with hot women - is shameful. Weird how that works.
The desire isn’t shameful dude. The fact you need to make it her problem is.
Where did I say I’m making it her problem?
Your entire commentary.
You see a woman you find sexually desirable about in public, doing normal, human things.
You approach her solely because you want to fuck her. You literally say this. You’re literally only interacting with her because you want to get your dick wet. Newsflash: People don’t want to fuck randos who come up to them at the grocery store. But because you wanted to throw in she now has to get out of the interaction - which I’m guessing is gonna be more than a bit fuckin’ fraught because you don’t seem to be grasping the fact that “I want to fuck it” is not a viable reason for annoying people in grocery stores - and manage your resultant rejection meltdown when all she wanted was some god damn potatoes.
You’ve made your desire her problem.
You have a 1st grade reading level
Please re-read my earlier comment. I was literally saying that I don’t approach women in grocery stores, because that would be weird. I was pushing back against another comment saying that not approaching women in grocery stores was objectifying them.
Edit: I just went to a grocery store. Had a pleasant conversation with the pharmacist at the counter while I picked up my prescription. Didn’t hit on her, because that would be weird.
I haven’t seen horseshoe used as a verb in… ever, but that still made sense.
I’m confused, what is horseshoe in this context?
but in this context: OP is working so hard to not treat their interactions with women as transactions that they only approach them when they have business with them…thus turning all interactions into transactions.
TIL, thanks!
Both of you are right. Both are wrong.
My advice, if you can safely take a shot, do it. Fortune favors the bold, not the stupid. Be polite, be flirty, pay attention to their body language, don’t try hard to turn a no into a yes, don’t worry about rejection.
Sure you can do dating apps or try meeting people through hobbies, but cold approaching people you like can turn out as good as it can be nerve wracking.
This is the answer. You can absolutely approach a woman if you are interested in her, just be respectful and polite about it. I’m a woman who has been both rudely approached and politely approached.
Scenario 1- bad experience: I was at a show seeing some metal bands I really liked. I was wearing a shirt with a local band that was big in the 80s 90s. The band is bit niche, not hugely known to the general public. So I’m minding my own business waiting to buy a drink, and this guy approaches me, points to my boobs and says “Do you even know who that band is?” I told him “yes, I’m a huge fan and have been listening to them for years.” That should have been the end of it, but then he tells me “oh I’m only asking since my niece has been wearing my old band shirts because they look cool”. Ok bud. There was no reason to tell me this. He was not approaching other men and asking them this same question. He was belittling me, in order to get me to talk to him. Which is a common tactic around men who don’t respect women as people (see Dennis Reynolds from it’s always sunny)
Scenario 2 - positive experience: Again, at a metal concert. I’m there with my husband and his bff. I was there to see the headliner, they were there to see the band before. My husband wasn’t feeling great all day, and his friend had to work early the next day, so they left and I stayed to watch the headlining band. I noticed this group of guys, especially one, sort of looking at me every once and a while, but I ignored it and watched the band. Once the show was over, I left and was waiting at the bus stop. The same group of guys approached me, and one that was looking at me during the show says “hi, my name is ____. I’m sorry to bother you, but I just wanted to introduce myself since I couldn’t help looking at you during the show. I don’t want to be a creep but I think you’re beautiful, would you like to grab a drink with me and my friends?” So I thanked him, and said I would have to pass, but hoped they all had a fun night". The they left, I got on the bus, felt safe and not bothered. This man complimented me in a respectful way and that was the end of it.
Hope that helps!
If you dont ask, the answer is automatically “No” .
“”“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott" - ZoomBoingDing
Honestly, as a woman, I think it’s more about knowing when it’s appropriate to talk to people.
It’s okay if people hit me up at the park or the bar. It’s not okay when I’m doing my groceries in a hurry, or when I’m crossing the street 😆 and if you get “rejected” (sometimes it’s not a hard rejection, my social schedule is just already full), just take it well and go talk to someone else.
I don’t think this is rocket science, and apart from some teenagers whistling me from across the street (which I always pretend I can’t hear), almost all adults get this right.
The unsatisfying answer: you’re both a little bit right.
You’re correct that times have changed somewhat. But I think it’s overkill to say that “approaching women at all unless you have business with them is disrespectful and borderline harassment”.
Of course, context matters a lot. Don’t bother women at their jobs, the bank is not a lady zoo. But in a social situation where you would expect to meet other people, it’s fine to strike up a conversation with strangers or even ask them out.
However, by your own admission you don’t get out much. So I’m assuming you don’t get a lot of situations like bars or parties where this would happen. So I would try networking in your community, develop some hobbies, go to functions where you might meet someone in this manner.
As usual, the nuanced answer that doesn’t oversimplify the complexities is the best one. Good answer.
I bet women 30-40 years ago would have loved to see this answer too. It’s a good thing that the world has changed in this regard.
OP already accounted for social situations where you would expect to meet people, though, and his parents seem to think that he should be approaching people in other situations—like in a store, or on the street. I’d be very cautious about that.
Yeah, I specifically mentioned to my parents seeing an attractive employee stocking shelves in the grocery store, and they said that I should have approached her. She was clearly busy when I passed by her. I just kept my distance and casually thought, “Wow, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I’ll definitely find one eventually, in a more appropriate social setting.”
Not once did it cross my mind to strike up a conversation with a busy employee, but they insisted that I should have. In my mind, the fact that it’s easy to find women that I find attractive is proof that I don’t need to go out of my way for one. Attraction is not a quick time event; to me, it’s a reminder of abundance, of just how many chances I have to find someone. I don’t need to do silly stunts or disrupt busy people. I just need to keep creating social opportunities for it to happen organically, and eventually it will. I think my parents saying that I have to chat up every woman that I find attractive no matter where is silly and neurotic. I believe being patient and not stressing over every “missed opportunity” is the best way to go.
Besides, this thread is proof that I’m not ready for a girlfriend in the first place. It would be great for me to practice talking to strangers casually and making some friends first. That way, I can get comfortable talking to people in general and build my confidence.
Yeah, definitely don’t bother people at work.
‘you know, you shouldn’t be in the frozen food section… because you could melt all this stuff!’
like in a store or on the street.
Well yeah, I think that’s part of what’s being said. I would say that in a store, or cafe is totally fine. On the street is a little weird, but in most public places it’s fine.
Also, if you’re ugly or poor, it’s always unwanted and disrespectful. Whether or not you’re ugly or even poor is up to them not you, so you have no way to ever know beforehand.
Women in general have made this so fucking difficult for men that it really should be mandatory for them to approach us at this point just to avoid issues.
I’m married, but worried about my sons getting in trouble for ever trying to approach a woman outside of a bar at this point, it seems the only place where asking a girl out randomly is still allowed at this point.
I do want to be sympathetic, but I have to be honest in that this seems like incel rhetoric to me.
Women are under no obligation to accept the advances of any random person in public, and framing that as a “them” problem is super disrespectful.
Nobody said they have to accept the advances. I’m saying that by restricting those advances in general, it should put the onus on women to make the advance. They can’t ask men to stop asking everywhere, then complain or be confused when men aren’t asking them out and this is something that is actively happening right now.
I’ve never heard a woman complain or be confused about not being asked out by strangers.
It seems like your sources are a fair step into the manosphere, and you and your sons would have a lot to gain by distancing yourself from that kind of influence. Nothing is as unattractive as bitterness, and you are sounding dangerously close to bitter here, and your attitude will influence your sons approach to life and relationships.
It’s been showing up on YouTube a lot in my feed all of a sudden. Like, past two weeks… some blonde lady men’s advocate trying to explain male behavior to women. She’s an interesting watch, seems more often correct than not (anecdotally).
There was a woman actually complaining about not getting cat-called anymore too. That one was a jaw dropper; but people like that are absolutely out there.
The Dadvocate? Sounds like the YouTuber you’re describing.
Emily W. King.
You’re using anecdotal data, I have actually heard a woman say “why won’t he just ask me out” and that isn’t useful data either.
It keeps coming up in dating studies though, which are useful, and frequently point out that women are complaining or confused about why it’s happening.
I think you will find that “why won’t he just ask me out” is not said about total strangers on the bus etc.
Why is Jackson Lamb arguing for anything nuanced or subtle?
I dunno, this may just be my own sensibilities clouding reality, but I don’t think the “onus” should be on anyone.
Men are more and more frequently getting in trouble for even just asking, which means they need to stop entirely or risk getting in trouble.
Either women take responsibility for asking the men out, or accept that they’re not going to get asked out except by assholes who ignore the risks and are statistically upsetting a lot of women before they succeed.
Totally disagree on so many points. Women haven’t made things difficult, if anything men (historically) have done so because women haven’t been given a choice.
But the narrative that if you’re ugly or poor anything you do is unwanted is just not true. It’s an idea pushed by those in their parents basement justifying why they don’t have a girlfriend.
Teach your son that no means no, and when an uncomfortable woman might mean “no” without saying it, and he’ll be fine. Respect for the wishes of others takes care of 99.9999% of any trouble.
You’re just plain wrong. I’ve seen men yelled at for asking politely in “acceptable” social situations.
You can pretend it’s not happening, but that doesn’t change the fact that it occurs regularly.
The problem isn’t that No isn’t being respected, it’s that women are getting offended at even being asked.
If someone yelled about asking politely in an acceptable social situation, then they were wrong. That is not normal. It’s certainly not a regular occurrence.
That being said, given your prior comment, which just screams “incel, mgtow, etc”, I’m gonna go ahead and doubt you saw what you say you did.
It is a regular occurrence. Regular enough that it’s been reflected in popular media for decades. They even make entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
Are you honestly so naive that you think those initial rejections don’t happen in real life? Everyone saw them at high school, and everyone saw them even more on social media when said girl spreads it around to cyberbully the boy even more. It’s been more than 20 years since I was at high school, and even when we didn’t have cellphones that shit still happened, and it didn’t stop at University either.
> entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
@BlameThePeacock can you name any? I’ve never seen such a plot.
It’s a major plotline in napoloean dynamite, and it’s the plotline for a side character in legally blonde
I assume you’re old enough to know those movies.
So your examples are “things that happened to me in high school”, and “movies which are obviously real”?
Again I’m going to have to ask you to leave your basement and interact with real people. You are wrong.
Do you think highschool isn’t real?
We aren’t talking about 40 year olds dating here grandm.
Anyone, of either gender, would react negatively to someone interacting with them with the energy and perspective you’re displaying here.
If you think that type of reaction is common, I suggest looking at the common denominator.
What the fuck does my energy level have to do with anything.
I’ve never had to ask a girl out in my life, I’ve been married to only my second relationship for more than half my life, and both ladies approached me.
If you have to ask what your energy/demeanor has to do with women being comfortable with you, you should probably be quiet on this subject.
Or maybe you should stop, because you’re making about as much sense as a potato.
I agree. But the thing with women… Oh, I wish you could visit the post-Soviet countries. Especially Belarus, Russia, Ukraine… You would be amazed by what’s there.
Mr. Tate is that you?
Creepy
Oh and what’s there, subservient “trad wives”? Get out of your basement and stop blaming others for your problems.
Are you talking to me??? Let’s start with the fact that I am a woman. And what do you mean by “traditional women”?
I’m married
That poor woman.
How have women made it difficult for men?
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
Now men who want a relationship can essentially only find one by either being an asshole and asking when they shouldn’t, or using a dating app which is a massive waste of men’s time.
How is it unsafe for a man to approach a woman in a social situation?
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” —Margaret Atwood
I think the guy you’re responding to is well down the path of believing that it’s “unsafe” to be laughed at.
And you’re so far down a path that you think getting laughed at is an acceptable response to someone asking you out.
Which one is more toxic?
I don’t think laughing at someone is an acceptable response to any person being respectful to another person, and your assumption that I am saying that from my comment shows more about you than me.
Anyone who would laugh at another person just because of how they look or how much money they appear to have is a flawed, unkind person.
Anyone who approaches another person and doesn’t respect if they set physical or verbal boundaries showing they don’t want to be approached is also flawed and either socially unaware/challenged or themselves unkind. And sometimes an easy way to get one of those people to go away is to laugh at them.
It’s unlikely for a cold approach to anyone asking for a date to be successful. Unlike 80 years ago, people aren’t looking for their first romantic connection to turn into life-long marriage; they actually want to have an established rapport with a person before the first date. So if someone just asks another person out with no lead up, or in certain settings, sometimes that will be so disconnected from social realities as to be absurd.
Anyway, regardless of the social intricacies of appropriate places to approach and/or ask out another, believing that women (or men) are a monolith who all will react the same way in a given situation is out of touch, disrespectful, and points to a lot of deep-seated sexism. I hope you can work that out before you pass it onto your son or he’s likely to have a much harder time finding a relationship.
I get the feeling old mate here does not find himself in actual social situations with women very often.
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
AKA, “A, B, and C aren’t appropriate, so D through Z aren’t safe either!”
Dude rather than accept some much-needed constraints, you’re having a hissy and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are people in this thread saying even doing it as a bar isn’t okay anymore. Name one place where a man would be safe asking without potentially being called a creep even just for a polite inquiry. It sounds like there isn’t one anymore.
Not all women would react that way, but it sounds like there are enough women who think that’s an acceptable response even in a bar that it’s nonlonher longer viable.
This is Ask Lemmy not Ask Incels.
That sounds like some incel shit right there. But since you said you’re married I’m forced to assume that you came by your misogyny honest?
men* have made this so fucking difficult
for menFTFY
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Sexist comment.
It really is. It actually makes me sad. I’m the grown daughter of a father who sounds a lot like the person you responded to. I love my dad and it’s a complicated relationship as he really doesn’t think he’s a misogynist, he truly believes he’s just “telling it like it is.”
It made me furious for years and now it deeply saddens me. He will never have the chance to truly know his daughter because he is literally incapable of seeing me as an equal in terms of basic humanity. And that is sad because I’m delightful and smart and wickedly funny when I’m comfortable with someone, he doesn’t get to see the authentic version of his own offspring, what a loss…
I’m sorry to hear that, that’s an awful situation to be in. I’m also not close with my parents because they say heinous shit that i can’t stand and support the red team and religion.
What a fucked up world we live in.Chosen family > inherited family
Bars are for hanging out with your friends now, it’s weird to hit someone up at a bar.
That makes it worse.
I disagree. Although I’m taken I was at a bar hanging with friends and, when I was getting a drink alone, a gal at the bar was totally giving me the “hit on me” eyes.
10 years ago I wouldn’t have seen it or acknowledged it, now that I’ve built more confidence with women I see it more often. That and, anecdotally, when you’re in a relationship women seem to come at you more often.
Let’s not attribute this to all women. This is both imposed and from the consumer culture of the patriarchal system. Less often, when it is radical feminism - here it is simply hatred of a man simply because he is a man… I am a girl, and I often see radical feminism… Especially in the post-Soviet space… It’s a wild horror… Especially those raised by mercantile princesses… If I were relaxing in a bar, I definitely wouldn’t want to see a man I didn’t know at that time. Why do you need parks, cafeterias, libraries and just the embankment?
You just made it worse, you’re saying that there’s nowhere a man can ask safely.
Like I said, it should be mandatory for women to be the one to approach at this point.
"it should be mandatory for women to "
Is a wild thing to put in absolutely any sentence.
Why?
It’s mandatory for all men to register for the selective service system in the US, and women don’t have to.
Sometimes things be like that.
I also disagree with conscription. But even if you think it’s a good idea, you’re equating a national service requirement to mandating women speak to men (presumably many of whom they have no interest in). This is just getting wilder and wilder.
What? who suggested women initiate dating conversations with men they have no interest in?
When I say women should have to approach men, I mean that men should not ask, and women should do the asking if they are interested to avoid any issues with women not wanting to be approached. Why the fuck would it mean anything else?
Where did I say that? There are drunk people in the bar, and they don’t always want to meet you. Yes, there are those who are only thirsty for acquaintances, but often they themselves will take the initiative. I suggested a list - cafes, parks, embankments, etc. It’s not always pleasant to talk to people who have been drinking, especially when it’s not part of the group.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers, you could get a positive response, but it’s equally likely that a women (or even a group) will start yelling at you for doing so.
That’s what I’m saying about nowhere to ask safely. Some women will be totally fine with being approached, and others will not, but there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
We need to bring back the whole gay handkerchief system and adapt it to the whole population, If everyone wore an accessory or object that indicates your willingness(or not) to be approached it would make the whole situation 100% better. Like a stoplight party, but all the time and with slightly less impact on your whole wardrobe.
there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
Ah, you’re getting to a challenge that women have faced forever: “If I reject this man, will he decide to attack or kill me?” (Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6)
Or just in general the concept that’s been named “Schrodingers Rapist.”
It would be a whole lot safer for many people if there was an automatic way to see into someone’s soul to know what they are like and what they are capable of. Are they a rapist? Do they have the potential to be? Will they reject me violently? Will they publicly humiliate me?
None of us can know those things. The best we can do is to try to establish strong social skills and pattern recognition, and work to avoid the situations that put us in danger (whether physical, social, or emotional). It’s hard and there’s no silver bullet.
While you want to put the onus on women to minimize the risk of a man being publicly humiliated, you’re ignoring the realities that women are dealing with the exact same kind of uncertainties (except statistically speaking, with much worse outcomes). There isn’t an easy answer here and it’s not one that falls on just one gender to resolve.
Im not ignoring the problem women have at all, I’m suggesting that if they want men to stop asking, they take the onus upon themselves to initiate.
You’re the one blaming men as being rapists here, not me. Maybe go talk to someone, you clearly have issues.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers
So I think this is the disconnect. This isn’t window shopping; you’re trying to connect with another human being. You need to take the time to talk with her, see if she shows interest by engaging and encouraging the conversation, and if there’s any commonality or chemistry between you.
Then, if you think there could be something there, offer to give your number rather than ask for hers. It will help her feel safer with you, and she can choose whether or not to accept and if she takes it, she can choose whether or not to follow up. It puts the onus on her to move things forward.
You are absolutely right. What kind of idiot would just walk up to you and take your number? Like if a girl just came up to you and you’d react normally? Even without knowing who she is and why she needs your number… 🤦🏼♀️ The man is clearly strange and obsessed with phone numbers…
I’m 40, and married. This isn’t about me.
You still don’t get it through, you say talk to them first, but thay limits when you can even start a conversation to very limited locations and certainly doesn’t include your suggestions around a park or embankment.
What the hell is this exaggeration? You just go and exaggerate everything!
If you need a meeting party, go ahead and organize one. But it is logical that no one will give out a phone number during social networks! It is not 90 or 00 (depending on the level of development of the country). After all, everyone has the right to refuse an acquaintance! It is not an obligation. But to answer your question, a small conversation is quite enough. And during the conversation you will understand whether there is any sense.
Gay, ok. So he’s just looking for a girlfriend, not a girlfriend. (Fucking English… 1 friend, 2 relationships) Why then meet on the street? There are plenty of different fan fiction sites, plenty of groups on themes where you can find people who are quite tolerant of gays and lesbians. You apparently have no idea what it’s like in other countries… Today the easiest way to meet someone is the Internet. And not the street. After all, many do not accept people who violate their personal space. I won’t even mention those who already have a developed culture of “man = rapist”… It’s generally difficult to understand what some individuals have brought women…
Your reading comprehension is very low. You should work on that before arguing with people. When I suggested the handkerchief system, the word gay was indicating a specific system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code) that had previously existed that you clearly are not aware of, which is made clear by the fact that I said it should be adapted to the whole population.
Yelling at people in your second language after not understanding the arguments being made is not helpful.
And damn, what’s so strange about embankments??? You know, there are some in Europe - by the river! Where there is a bench or people just stroll… It feels like you never left the house…
I don’t mind if a man initiates a conversation with me. I don’t mind if anyone initiates a conversation with me. I only mind when I use words like, “no, thank you”, and they persist. Listen to the word NO.
I don’t get it. Do they do that? I haven’t seen this outside drunkards
Both of you are right and wrong, it’s not so black and white.
You absolutely can make friends, chat with people at the bus stop, strike up convos at bars, the local ski resort, bike park, etc. Friendships can naturally blossom into relationships (or remain friendships, which is healthy and natural too).
You can’t approach people and immediately ask them out, it feels weird and unappreciated (and that goes both ways, I’ve had a complete 180° role reversal and it was still weird and gross).
You’re young, you have plenty of time, and honestly the weirdest thing about all this is that your parents are worried you’re gay, like there’s something wrong with that. There’s barely any differences between genders, people overhyped the shit out of it in church, tbh.
Anyways, any% dating really doesn’t work, and I feel like your parents should know that. Don’t even try for dating, everyone can sense desperation. Just dgaf and focus on having fun and making friends. Love will naturally evolve out of good friendships.
