The fediverse is small, and thats both a blessing and a curse - one of its several blessings is that in a smaller space we all individually have a bigger impact on what the culture of this space is like.
On this comm (and on lemmy broadly) there’s a lot of discussion about how to grow the fediverse, what to improve, but an easy thing you can do for the fediverse is right in front of us-
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Be kind
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Ask people what they think, and why
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Approach folks you disagree with with curiosity rather than hostility (EDIT: no, this is not specifically referring to Nazis. I get it, they’re the first thing that comes to mind. I’m not telling you to approve of Nazis I’m just saying be kind to your fellow lemmites)
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Engage sincerely
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Ask yourself if there’s something nice you can say
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Make this small space worth being in
A platform lives or dies by what’s available on said platform and often we have this conversation in the context of “content” or posts - and we may never have as much content as reddit does. But content and posts aren’t the only thing this kind of platform offers- it also offers people. It offers community, and human interaction.
Culture and community is lemmy and the fediverse’s biggest differentiator, and we all have a role to play in shaping the culture of this space.
The biggest thing you can do to help the fediverse is make it a place worth being.
Sorry but right wingers aren’t welcome here.
If (Republicans/Tankies/Fascists) want any voice here they can go get fucked.
If they acted in good faith and were capable of processing reality they wouldn’t identify as such.
We need to accept they have had decades to self reflect and learn how reality works, and instead they choose to erase minorities because they make right wingers uncomfortable.
No, I’m done being nice.
They can stop supporting fascist movements the moment they want to be included, but if they don’t then they’ve backed themselves into that corner.
“Tankies”
The irony with this is that Lemmy was founded by communists and it follows a lot of communist principles.
Tankies aren’t communist.
Authoritarianism is right wing.
Authoritarians can be and ARE either left or right wing.
That is a very specific interpretation of what I meant by this post.
To be perfectly honest, I really wasn’t making the point you should approve of nazis. Just that maybe it’s worth putting effort into being kind to one another…
For example, I constantly see leftists online biting eachother’s heads off (including on lemmy) for having slightly different left-wing ideology. Its not like “approach people you disagree with with curiosity” means specifically actual neonazis, and approaching someone with curiosity doesn’t mean telling people “your idea is correct and you’re right for thinking it”
It means trying to understand it. You can dislike someone and still gain from better understanding their worldview. Even if you think it’s harmful. Even if you think it’s illogical. Even if you think they’re wrong. Curiousity isn’t tacit approval.
If you want to think about it cynically you can consider it creating allies and knowing your enemy.
All of that ignoring the fact that if you look around, this platform is almost exclusively left wing 😅 even if it includes folks left of center I don’t agree with, like tankies and neoliberals (who yes, I know, are only left with respect of the US overton window. Thats where I’m from 🤷♂️)
I understand we disagree on certain things, that’s okay, these are just my thoughts on the subject, and it’s a profoundly important one, so I can appreciate why people would have different strongly held beliefs on it. Hope you have a good one :)
Yeah that’s a much too enlightened take for these parts it’ll never fly.
Anger and fear are blinding if you let them be, especially if they’re intensely justified.
Unfortunately we live in times where they’re very justified. I don’t begrudge people for reacting in anger or fear, I’m doing my best not to do exactly the same :(
Take care my friend.
As so often, the answer is found in scripture:
Answer. I said answer. Not solution. Too much aspirin and your blood thins out and you need to move to Transylvania.
That took my brain a hot minute to process lol. Is that actually from something or did you just invent it on the spot? 😅
Unironically wisdom we should all learn from. I can’t stop for other people but I can at least choose how I act, and whether I contribute to that pain suffering and discord.
Right wingers voted for the Republicans who are now attempting a fascist coup.
I’m done trying to make friends with people who want to erase me and my friends/family
Idk what to tell you
I can understand your anger, I’m in the same boat, but I really wasn’t asking you to do that :( I was asking you to be kind to the people here. That you share this space with.
I wish I had left this list of examples in the original post where I had them at first
I moved them to a comment because I have a bad habit of being really long winded and I wanted people to actually read the whole post, but I think moving them and leaving “try to approach people you disagree with with curiosity rather than hostility” prompted a lot of folks to interpret what I was saying as “tell the Nazis who want to debate your humanity that all their views are swell, actually”
What I meant is exactly what didn’t happen in our interaction with eachother. I’m a queer leftist whose humanity is debated by the right. You don’t completely agree with me and that’s okay, but I’m not deserving of your hostility.
We may not see things exactly the same way but I care just as much about combating fascism as you do; everyone I love save for some of my family is a minority with a target on their back in the eyes of the current administration.
I wish I could have made it more clear what I meant. I’ve gotten lots of comments more or less insinuating that I’m encouraging we all complicit in the rise of fascism. And it’s not a big percentage, but I’m still a human being who hears 12 people forcefully telling me that, and it doesn’t feel great.
That’s not what I’m advocating. I’m advocating that when you don’t completely see eye to eye with someone, you ask them what they mean (and also lots of other things, like giving compliments and telling folks you appreciate their post, etc. etc. ect., but I feel like how to handle disagreement is the specific idea in question).
WE don’t see exactly eye to eye. You and other commenters here don’t see exactly eye to eye. And that’s okay. Being willing to talk with them or me about what they think and why doesn’t help the Nazis.
(Like I said I’m really long winded 🙃 sorry for the wall of text, I know it’s not even the first one I’ve replied with to you specifically 😅)
It’s specifically the “don’t call people Russian trolls/bots”
There are a lot of Right wingers sympathetic to fascist countries right now, and it doesn’t matter if it’s a troll farm or a regular person pushing hateful ideology it’s harmful and unacceptable either way.
Personally I don’t see calling people Russian bots/trolls or accepting harmful behaviour as the only available options.
I don’t think the former is at all productive or helps anything, and the latter is completely unacceptable. But those aren’t our only options when we decide how we want to engage with people we disagree with
and again, fascists are not the only people with whom disagreements happen on lemmy. We’re literally disagreeing right now, if you called me a Russian bot I think that would be silly and unproductive. That’s literally my whole point. Not everyone you disagree with is arguing in bad faith 🤷♂️
If we keep letting Nazis into the bar it becomes a Nazi bar
This is a good principle to learn as to not accidentally validate people with invalid worldviews.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi_bar
I’m very familiar with and agree with the Nazi bar metaphor, and said as much in one of my very first comments I made in the discussion under this post. At no point have I advocated letting Lemmy be a Nazi bar. And we don’t exactly have many fascists here compared to other platforms, Lemmy is almost exclusively leftists.
Being kind to your fellow lemmites is not making this platform a Nazi safe haven, it just makes it a social space actually worth spending time in.
Horseshoe theory is horseshit.
Imperialist Propaganda and the Ideology of the Western Left Intelligentsia: From Anticommunism and Identity Politics to Democratic Illusions and Fascism
Thanks for showing up to be an example Davel
Davel is one of the ones who knows exactly what they are supporting, but choose to because they don’t act in good faith.
Now kindly fuck off until next time Davel. :p
This is an example of what being nice is for the average Lemmy user
Jesus Christ you people can’t even comment without going ballistic at each other over the slightest thing
I wouldn’t call this the “average” Lemmy user, but there is a minority of very loud users who make it seem that way at times.
If we want this to be a pleasant place, users need to report them, and mods & admins—who, I cannot stress enough, do this labor for free or at most peanuts—need to deal with them.
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/code_of_conduct.html
You’ve once again shown your empty accusations and insults, contrary to OP’s advice in this post.
You will never be accepted in this space no matter how many alt accounts you make to downvote people.
This isn’t reddit you fascist, your tactics don’t work here.
I have no problem with them being here, FYI
Why thank you, one of my thousands of no good, bad faith alt accounts.
They have one very important thing in common. They both support the alt-right. Fascists because they want to. Leftist because they’re purists.
They do not support the alt-right. What are you even talking about? “MAGA communists” almost never show up on Lemmy, and when they do they are quickly shown the door. And Marxist are neither “purists,” “idealists,” nor “utopians,” which you’d know if you’d read any Marxist theory.
I have read a lot of marxist and anarchist theory. All marxist theories did is to confirm that the anarchists are right.
They support the alt-right by being overly idealistic and failing to partner with liberals and more moderate leftists to make progress.
Divide and be conquered.
Mate, the goal is to be idealistic. No one is perfect, but we want to strive for what’s the best and hope we reach there some day.
Yes, but not at the cost of letting fascists win. Harm reduction is real.
Sure, harm reduction is good. That’s what’s been happening for the past century.
But you give the liberals an inch and they’ll take a mile. They’re only “liberals” as long as they’re making money of others, as soon as something goes wrong they’re first in line asking for government handouts. That’s why the liberals will always prefer fascist over left wing idealists, because they’re opportunists more than anything else. They’ll backstab you and vote in fascists if they think they can make more money with them. That’s exactly what’s happening in the US.
We need new politics where hating on the LGBTQ+, immigrants, women, and putting money over the lives of few isn’t considered a political leaning.
Yep. Which means we need to run for government positions in a way we can win
Partnering with liberals is idealistic. They always stab you in the back at the first opportunity.
I disagree. Socialists often tactically partner with liberals on shared goals, despite the risks. Knowing that, when forced to choose, liberals have historically sided with fascists, because fascists will never upend capitalism.
It makes tactical sense to partner with liberals in some contexts, like a national liberation struggle, and to put aside lesser contradictions to focus on the principal contradiction. It doesn’t make sense to partner with liberals while under capitalism, especially not within the imperial core. The liberals in congress don’t have a shared goal in stopping fascism.
What, a Zionist genocidaire giving a performative twenty five hour faux filibuster is not stopping fascism?
If you know what you are arguing and argue with tankies/Nazis in good faith, nine times out of ten they will eventually lose their temper and make fools of themselves. There is no need to be hostile to begin with, they just defeat themselves basically because their ideologies are totally flawed (kinda like in real life).
These people don’t deserve validation.
It is not to validate them, it is to discredit them and provide red flags to would-be readers how dangerous their ideas are.
It makes them feel validated, they’re not capable of self reflection
From my experience it hurts more than helps to engage with fascists/right wingers because you give them a platform.
They should be contained on twitter and truth socal until they learn that it’s not ok to kill minorities or they decide they want to get shot.
You missed the part where I said it is for the readers, not the cultists. It is not about convincing these ideologues, it is to warn the readers why the ideas of these cultists are bad.
If you’re out there suggesting political stances can be adequately expressed along a single line, then you’re not doing much better I’m afraid. Engage with the nuance, friend, it’ll build understanding and be better for all of us.
‘Left’/‘Right’ need to go, they’re losing any meaning they once had - instead: “What’s your policy on X”? “How do you feel about Y?” “Do you agree with Z’s policy on A, B & C, and why?”.
Curiosity, followed by grounded opinion, over tribalism.
Now excuse me while I go and try to practice what I just preached 😅
that’s what i’ve been saying for a while now. like a healthy organism that has both left and right hands, society too shall have both right and left people in it. that is not a problem. what is the problem is that these different parts are not communicating clearly enough and it’s causing dysfunction of society.
Which one of your hands has the ideology that hinges on erasing the other? And which one wants affordable Healthcare?
But nuance is hard and demands empathy which is also hard. I want to be angry-mad and stomp my feet!
Your comment history is deranged
Don’t apologize.
serious question but how do/could you formalize your rejection of right-wingers? what is it exactly that you take issue with?
i’m asking because i talk to a lot of people (also some who identify as “right-wingers”) and i’d like to know what exactly are the issues that bother people, so i can forward it to them. it would help me bring up better arguments if i know what other people are thinking.
so, i’ve collected the following list of things to take issue with so far:
tell me if i forgot something.
The basic problem is thinking that conquering somebody is natural, inevitable, or good.
oh yes i forgot about canada and greenland somehow, sorry
actually i meant in general, like apart from the current situation with trump.
Right wing ideologies hinge on distracting people from their problems instead of solving them.
This arracts exclusively con men and dumb marks.
And the distractions they choose always end up being the erasure of minorities for some fucking reason.
I mean
It’s been happening for the 99.9% of human existence
proof?
i’m asking because i suspect that might be a fallacy; i remember reading somewhere that 10k years ago the first wars happened, before then war practically didn’t exist because war requires a minimum amount of organization and that just wasn’t there before.
There was organized violence deployed by groups of humans against other groups of humans long, long before anything we would recognize as warfare. Particularly brutal violence too, because the objective was not to conquer other people (something which only makes sense once agriculture is the dominant mode of sustinence), but to either drive off or exterminate a rival group so you can use their territory for yourself.
And we don’t even need to talk about people here: we have records of chimpanzees fighting small scale wars of harassment and extermination against neighboring groups.
Pre-modern, pre-civilization, pre-aggriculture, pre-you-name-it human life was far more violent than what we deal with today.
We aren’t chimpanzees. As persistence hunters, our kinds of territorial disputes would have been very different and early humans were likely very nomadic rather than settling into territories that fight. In times of scarcity we’d just move on to different lands.
Which, notably, is why humans spread over the entire planet. We aren’t really built to be fighters.
Nomadic people don’t just wander around aimlessly, and there are big differences in how desirable different territory is for nomadic hunter-gatherer humans. The principle is the same as with nomadic pastoralists: your group has a territory which can sustain them when hunted on/gathered from/grazed/etc over the course of the year, and your group will wander within that space in a deliberate pattern. If some other group decides to “just move on to” your group’s territory, hunting the animals and foraging the plants that your group knows they are going to need to survive the year, that’s an existential threat to you. And you can’t “just move on” yourself without wandering into the territory of yet more groups whose territory borders yours, and who will react violently to your presence for the same reasons.
Given the choice between fleeing to who knows where and fighting who knows who for the privilege of moving, or staying right where you are and fighting for the land you know your group can survive on, you stay and fight.
Humans spread out across the earth as the losers of these conflicts (those who survived, anyway) fled until they stumbled on new-to-humans territory, often displacing or eradicating groups of more “primitive” hominids they found there. This process continues until just about everywhere which humans can reach and which can support human life has humans in it. But expanding populations, the occasional natural disaster, and normal human frustration that their territory sucks while their neighbors have it great (which was often true; again, not all land is the same to a nomadic hunter/gatherer) meant that these conflicts were constantly reignited.
No one is saying we are chimps, but we share lots of mammalian behavior
For example, did you know chimpanzees engage on guerrilla wars, torture and , weirdly enough, prisoner exchanges?
But that’s besides the point, I think they were just pointing out how standardized is that behavior in the animal kingdom, not excusing it
But it’s not “standardized” behavior, that’s just the behavior of a single animal.
We have more in common with other migratory herd animals because we move so much. Elephants, for example.
We also didn’t have modern medicine for 99.9% of human existence. Want to return to that?
Who said that?
Basic history told me that?
Here, check under modern - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine
Okay, you are being purposely obtuse, thanks for clarifying
Doesn’t make it right. This is a civilized age and we must forever push for progress.
No one said it was
Fair enough
You can’t say fairer than that, oh drat!
Same with smallpox.
And we’re capable of better now.
In America, right wingers support the republicans who have a verified track record of taking rights away, cheating elections and straight up lying. By refusing the see any other point of view, they reject open mindedness. They are unyielding in their beliefs and that is dangerous. It’s whats led to the current affairs of the USA. Theyve been swindled for years. The thing I hate most of all is there core principle is hate. They hate minorities, immigrants, foreigners and gays. They always have some justification for it. "Gays are cross dressing and confusing my children. Gays are indecent. Minorities are abusing social programs. Jewish people are running criminal cabals. (Etc. etc.)
You’ll have the “oh well I don’t support THAT part of my political party but shrug nothing we can do 🙂” publicans but don’t do anything or even CRITICIZE it. And those that try to refute these points either outright deny that its true or use whataboutism.
I will end this by saying I have right winger friends who are radicalizing away from me and I’m trying my hardest to show them that core beliefs of comraderie and compassion is far superior to the kool aid they’re being forced fed by all major social media companies.
deleted by creator
actually let me think about it again:
IMO that somebody’s always hateful is typically a sign of enormous psychological/emotional stress. so that tells me these people have a lot of problems, and probably don’t know how to deal with the world. i wonder what education would do to them.
The thing is, hate has varying degrees. There is: slight disregard up to boiling rage. But the root is the same. They hate those that are different and the higher ups need a Boogeyman to point their capitalistism caused depression to.
The main thing is the bigotry and making marginalized people feel unwelcome and unsafe. Having trans people and Nazis existing in the same space isn’t really tenable, in practice, most marginalized people would rather be in a space where their existence and basic rights aren’t up for debate and where they won’t receive slurs and threats of violence. So the question is, who would you rather have in your community, oppressor or oppressed?
Of course, this person applies this standard blindly by including “tankies” as “right-wingers.” She’s just abusing a valid argument by using it to dismiss any perspective she doesn’t like, left or right, bigoted or accepting, bad faith or good faith, as “right-wing.”
Oh, not them. I suppose they meant among non-right wingers. I always found quite explicit they aren’t welcome here. Not today, not ever.
What is a tankie?
If you’re familiar with how the word “commie” was used during the cold war, its just an updated version of that, for people who don’t want to sound like crusty boomers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie#Modern_Internet_uses but actually https://www.joewrote.com/p/jfk-files-reveal-the-cia-role-in
A broken clock is right twice a day. And it is not like the Hungarian freedom fighters are mujahideen turned Taliban.
CIA again
This is interesting.