No, seriously.
This mindset of, “If you don’t like to read pages of documentation to figure out how to do the thing you’re wanting to do, then maybe Linux isn’t for you?” Or the “god. How dare you ask such a STUPID question. You’re using Linux wrong and it probably isn’t for you. Go back to baby’s first OS!” Is the biggest gripe I have about using Linux.
Especially since the manpages are not written to always be comprehensible for end-users, but for developers and professionals. Some tools like tldr can help, however they rarely come preinstalled and aren’t getting the attention they deserve.
My gripe is “oh, you picked the wrong distro”
I just want my printer to work ffs
I’d put that one on the printer manufacturers. They love making them crappy.
So you ever tried support with windows? Go to some crappy community site with people who barely know what they are talking about and try some powershell and regedit crap.
Or go read conflicting Microsoft documentation that always seems to make man files look easy.
Its computers. You read stuff to deal with stuff, the OS is irrelevant.
I’ve been hearing about Linux elitists for the last 20 years, and I have yet to meet one. But what I do see is an endless wave of trolling and bad faith arguments about the supposed complexity of Linux.
They treat a wide array of developers, maintainers and enthusiasts as employees of Linux inc, and now they’re grumpy because their imaginary ticket submitted to a nonexisting helpdesk is not being processed.
I have recieved much more help and support from the Linux community than from any other proprietary software helpdesk.
I’ve been hearing about Linux elitists for the last 20 years, and I have yet to meet one.
Post/browse a help forum, it doesn’t take long to find them
YOU SHALL USE tty ON A 4K HDR SCREEN
I use Arch BTW!
In fairness sometimes users don’t want to hear the truth
I too have never seen this. I see a lot of people claiming they are there but don’t seen to find them. Been doing this a long time.
I can’t say I’ve ever ran into anyone like this. And the Arch wiki is so newbie friendly, I use it all the time and I don’t even use Arch.
Ive seen a lot of anti-gui sentiment but nothing I can remember enough to link to
The problem is that the road between creating a piece of software that does something well, and then creating simplification layers on top of it is typically much longer than just “edit a config file” and “here’s a readme”.
You need extra documentation, config gating and workflow, warnings, UI/UX work etc.
I know there are Linux elitists but kind of expecting that much extra work for what is still at it’s core mostly volunteer software seems like it’s own form of elitism.
Absolutely agreed, I find it extremely telling that most people who say that have never personally contributed nor donated. Its ok to have expectations but its not ok to make demands from volunteers, thats why so many devs get burnt out and leave.
The thing is, simple can mean two things, and they are quite often at odds with each other.
It can mean simple to understand, or simple to use.
For example, a piece of software that’s just a binary, a config file and a man page describing the config file and the software’s behavior is generally quite easy to understand. Like, you can fit the idea of the program entirely into your mind and “comprehend” it, though it may not be easy to use for a novice.
By contrast, a piece of software that contains additional layers for easy of use, like a GUI to edit options, may be simple to use, but not necessarily simple to understand. The additional layers add more complexity that does not contribute to core functionality of the program, it can become unclear what gets changed where when you click on buttons, the config file is likely not documented, human readable or editable, or it may even be a completely opaque configuration database (the registry), … So making the software more simple to use, often makes it harder to comprehend.
I, and I think many other nerds, like software that is simple in the “comprehensible” sense, we want to be able to wrap our head around it completely and we don’t mind putting in a little bit of effort to achieve that comprehension, whereas other people prefer to hit the ground running.
This whole thread seems to be, primarily, people inventing strawmen and them a comment thread dogpiling them.
We have the “elitist Linux question answerer” and the “average user who is grandmother of 93 years that faints at the sight of terminal text” taking a lot of heat.
Many of stray shots at developers for having the audacity to provide access to the software that they made in their spare time without providing a full UX that compares to IOS.
The “fellow Linux users” who installed Linux 5 years ago, ran into a problem and declared Linux a failed experiment.
The OP isn’t even a good meme. It’s just ragebait.
The people who post these kind of things are not trying to improve the community. They’re concern trolling.
Nobody is “preventing simplification”. Anyone is more than welcome to fire up an IDE, clone a project and simplify whatever they feel like. That’s how the open source software ecosystem works. If you don’t like something then fix it.
You’re not a customer, you’re a community member. Making demands of other people isn’t going to go over well, but it isn’t because people are “elitist”.
To configure most suckless tools you need to… recompile them. The readme says:
Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it’s pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions.
But if you are trying to compile suckless tools, you are already in too deep.
Those dudes are lost in the sauce. Nobody should be using big endian these days
Wow. Just wow. What a bunch of utter darlings. Just let them stew in their own idiocy.
Edit: To clarify, I mean the people who wrote this readme.
You need to edit a C header file used as a config file, and run make and use the resulting executable file. That hardly keeps out anyone.
At the same time DWM is very convenient, and so was WMII.
I know how to compile my own software, but I’m not gonna fucking do it. I’ll leave a comment where I can calling the devs lazy assholes (because they are) and move on with life, as will many others
Because that’s unnecessary elitism, and it’s gross. Also, 1 step of extra work is bullshit and wastes human life for no fuckin reason
If you’ve seen suckless tools, the whole point is that they are rudimentary. DWM is one header file and one source code file of ~2k lines.
It’s not lazy because having a config file wouldn’t add anything to using those things, and it’s not elitism or gross because it’s not hard for those who understand why’d they use suckless tools at all. It also contributes to atmosphere.
FFS, please stop trying to press other people to do things your way, that’s what’s gross.
That keeps out 90% of the population. Do not underestimate how complex that is to people who aren’t tech-savvy and who are used to “it just works”.
Something having an X-Wing pic keeps out a lot of people too, cause not everyone likes Star Wars. What’s your point?
A preference for digital media and requiring someone to edit a file then recompile the project are two different things entirely. I don’t care for star wars and wouldn’t care what images they had from those movies, but even though I’m a dev and absolutely could build the source if needed. I’m quite likely not going to care enough to do that. A user that has never messed with source code is likely not going to be comfortable doing all that.
You gotta remember that your average user isn’t a dev. They aren’t someone who’s used to modifying configs to set something up. They’re more like your grandmother who isn’t even comfortable looking into the settings app on their phone.
To remain polite, I’ll note that this subject has nothing to do with “your average user” or anything else connected to selling something useless to somebody who doesn’t care. All this grandma and average user and other talk is absolutely out of place about tools never intended to be sold on a market or be used by everyone. You are not required to use suckless tools in the first place.
I don’t find it difficult, and have enjoyed sxmo on the PinePhone. I understand the suckless approach, but I do have to admit that many people that I know, even tech-savvy ones, probably would not want to rebuild to configure something.
probably would not want to rebuild to configure something.
It builds in a second. About DWM. It’s 2k lines of C code, all they do is basic functionality. It’s not some cumbersome process of setting up an environment, and then looking at running lines of compiler output as if you were some fscking Neo installing Gentoo.
Acting like this is some impossible task is a bit of a stretch. It’s 2 commands.
It’s probably not that bad, but the attitude towards novice users is a red flag. I get not having the time or energy to respond to each and every help request, but putting that in a readme is basically telling users that they’re on their own. I think I’d get ridiculed if I started asking for help.
It’s a good strategy if you’re trying to keep your software niche though.
To be clear, it seems like cool software. Compiling every time you need to change your config seems excessive to me, but I think I get the vibe. There’s just no reason to be preemptively hostile to new users.
LOL yes, I had a look at those too when I was looking for a more minimal terminal. Noped the fuck out when I read you had to recompile the tools to configure them.
It’s not that this is beyond my skill level, but that is just so … why would I want to do that?
man this is a good linux meme, its funny and its real criticism of linux. why were all the linux memes shitty for a while there? why are they better now suddenly?
Hey, I installed Arch btw with Hyprland and I gotta say, the docs are super newbie-friendly. No problems on my end.
The Arch Wiki is so nice
But I’ve never met anyone like this. Do they exist?
They are literally in this thread here.
Git gud n00b!
/s, of course.
I’ve come across this kind of response a few times on here and elsewhere, but I think it’s nowhere near as prevalent as it’s sometimes made out to be.
Fuck right off with that, whoever actually made this image. I am fed up with “simplification”, which is actually making everything as dumb and as closed as possible
What an out of touch take
Lol. I am writing this from a phone where I can’t even see entire file system. Fuck those who made this, fuck those who think it is a good thing
Why did you buy an iPhone
I did not, that’s Android
Edit: Sadly the absurdness is the other direction
See other thread
Looks like you need a doctor. Or a linguist. Don’t make inability to read ruin your life
Depending on your device, you can root it and get full system access.
And rooting is such an easy thing to do. Which is also why I wrote my initial comment
Don’t even need root just need to download pretty much any option other than the stock file manager. Amaze, simple, whatever, it’s all better than the garbage google “engineers” made.
That will get you much more for sure, but they were seemingly referring to the entire filesystem, which does require root.
Whatch this, lol
luckily people seem to be becoming better with this.
linux is also becoming better at being user friendly.
Linux is so complicated!
Translation:
Linux actually isn’t Windows.
Absolutely this, im all in favor of making Linux more accessible but we dont need to become a Windows clone
I don’t want things to get simpler to the detriment of the power that Linux has. As long as there’s no regression who cares
Fedora Kinoite/Silverblue is hard to fuck up and Just Works®
Yes, except I needed to modify some kernel parameters to fix display artifacts a few months ago due to an upstream bug. Wasn’t a big deal for me but the user who uses the system, even the concept of editing some parameters is beyond their comprehension.
Yeah, I think the biggest obstacle to wider adoption of Linux is the lack of availability of devices that come with it installed. As long as you can’t buy a Linux PC at Best Buy & co, it will always be somewhat niche. Pretty much anyone can use Linux these days but installing it is just too much of a hassle for the average user.
Yeah, the days of end users installing their own OS is in the past, PCs are appliances for most people now.
I think it’s still around the same amount of people, just that the wider amount of users of PCs in general is far higher so the percentage of tinkerers to “just make it work” is completely different.
Lol, what? This is suggesting window is simple?
Linux is so much better in this regard.
People don’t see it because they have habits, but once you support both OS’s, windows is full of bizarre quirks and nonsense.
