• Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee
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    2 days ago

    I think the flaw is human nature. All governments and organizations are corrupt. All implementations are always twisted to suit the greed of individuals.

    It’s entirely possible to create policy and enforcement mechanisms that would mitigate or eliminate excessive greed but nobody with anything votes for it because they’ll lose out on their own personal greed by their measure. They want that chance to fleece the masses even if they aren’t in the club that’s already doing it.

    Blame humans.

      • Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee
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        2 days ago

        I’d love one, I don’t think humans are capable.

        In very small organization sizes it’s possible but as people come and go eventually someone will get control to make decisions that put their interests or their connections interests ahead of the masses.

        • MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
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          2 days ago

          I think “it’s human nature” is an excuse made by the ruling class to quell challenges to the system that benefits them.

          Sociopathic hoarding and anti-social manipulation is an abberation that our system artificially elevates and rewards.

          If we were culturally more hostile to attempts to rent out our lives and natural resources back to us, and didn’t put zero-empathy profit hoarders on the front of magazines, things could be better.

          I agree with you on group sizes though. When people are treated like hyper-specialized insects with ID numbers instead of identities, funneled into highly-specialized roles, every one a stranger to the other, something has gone horribly wrong.

          • Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee
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            2 days ago

            In what way does this graph say humans are not corrupt and taking advantage?

            Even under communism the 1% had 4% of assets, that’s not 1% of assets like true communism should be. That in and of itself proves corruption to me. The fact that the USSR fell and a handful of 1%ers got the majority of industries for pennies on the dollar is egregious corruption. None of this is a criticism of communism. This is criticizing the actions of individuals who decided to be corrupt.

            It’s just human nature. Some people call it “enlightened self interest” others call it nepotism, some call it survival of the fittest. Some call it gaming the system. In all cases it’s the same problem. Sometimes things can go well for a while but on a scale of even just a hundred years when an organization has more than a couple hundred people it simply goes sideways.

            • davel@lemmy.ml
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              2 days ago

              Even under communism the 1% had 4% of assets, that’s not 1% of assets like true communism should be.

              In the US, the top 1% has over 30%. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because a socialist state hadn’t yet reached some Platonic ideal doesn’t mean it should be thrown out with the bathwater. You can’t go from a decimated, war-ravaged, illiterate, feudal agrarian backwater to some socialist utopia overnight.

            • This graph does not say that no-one is corrupt, correct. It does however show that the soviet system had much less inequality than what came before (under the Tsar) and after (capitalism). This is an improvement. This graph does not prove corruption either. Some having more than others is not corruption.

              The soviets did not reach communism, they were building socialism.

              Under capitalism, the vast majority of people must labour, by getting a job… if they can, to get money to have a house, food, medicine, etc. They take actions in line with how capitalism functions, to the extent they are doing so to survive, this is “human nature”, yes, but I don’t think this is the way that you are using those words. Under socialism, you are guaranteed a job, housing, food, there is free healthcare, etc. The actions the same person would take under socialism are different. So what you call “human nature”, but is just actions taken within context of capitalism, is not actually human nature.

    • Kras Mazov@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 days ago

      I think the flaw is human nature. All governments and organizations are corrupt. All implementations are always twisted to suit the greed of individuals.

      Please take your nickname seriously for a moment and do some critical thinking about what you just said.

      “Human nature” being greedy and corrupt is a completely horrible and wrong argument that only serves to keep us desillusioned about change. Saying that human nature is greedy and corrupt while currently living in a capitalism system is the same as studying human nature inside a coal mine and coming to the conclusion that it must be human nature to cough your lungs out. Our environment have a deep influence on us and you can’t just ignore that.

      If you really want to argue about human nature, the simple fact that we are social creatures that often help each other out of empathy and compassion already negates your argument.

      It’s entirely possible to create policy and enforcement mechanisms that would mitigate or eliminate excessive greed but nobody with anything votes for it because they’ll lose out on their own personal greed by their measure.

      Voting will not change the system, you cannot change it from within. The capitalist class might give us a few breadcrumbs here and there to keep us from revolting, but they will always do everything to keep the system as it is because it benefits them as a class.

      This is not an individual issue. As much as some individuals are horrible pieces of shit, these interests are collective and shows the class struggle in society.

    • dudeami0@lemmy.dudeami.win
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      2 days ago

      I would argue this is more an issue of when citizens get complacent and stop holding those who govern them accountable. This is when any form of government will eventually start turning to the corruption. Those in power can change the rules while citizens are going about their lives. It works even better if the citizens are too busy and stressed out to worry about “silly things like politics”.

      • Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee
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        2 days ago

        Getting everyone to be involved and knowledgeable about absolutely everything and to fight to make things right is beyond the capabilities of current humans. The more I know the more I understand I don’t know a lot about so many things beyond what i’ve experienced. Ignorance drives so many reactions (including the personal attacks from my comments here.)

        I have met many individuals in this world who get very, very angry that someone else is doing x, y, or z - even if it has zero impact on them. Some of the reactions to my comments here about a very logical challenge that could have solutions with technology are attacked with illogical non-arguments and are a perfect example of how impossible it is to get humans to think critically about things when they have their own biases.

          • Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee
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            2 days ago

            Based on your comment history and how negative you are about absolutely everything… have you looked in the mirror lately?

            Also keep in mind that I have simply made a hypothesis that humans are incapable of not being corrupt in organizations at scale. How in the fuck is that any one political leaning? The system itself is irrelevant. Even in communes where everyone “shares equally” there’s usually someone in leadership getting special exemptions and special treatment.