Regular reminder that being an asshole is not a symptom of any form of neurodivergence. (You can replace “neurodivergent” with depressed, anxious, bipolar, etc. and the diagram works equally well)
ETA: social faux pas, awkwardness, and genuine symptoms of neurodivergence don’t make you an asshole. I shouldn’t have to say this? An “asshole” is someone who enacts a pattern of abusive, controlling, harassing, and/or harmful behavior with no remorse or concern for how other people are affected.
I agree but would qualify my agreement with a note:
Some of our neurodivergent traits come across as assholeish or rude behavior and while most of us try and temper and mask it does slip out especially in high stress situations.
Intention matters.
I think it’s my responsibility to explain to coworkers and make super sure they understand how I am especially after a high stress event (for me that’d likely be a server outage in production).
This is true! But there’s a very easy way to tell the difference.
When you find out you hurt someone’s feelings, do you apologize, express how terrible you feel about it, and try to do better? Not an asshole.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
Saying the wrong thing doesn’t make you a jerk. Not caring about other people’s feelings, does.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
I often inconvenience people in a particular way. (I’m very frequently late.) I apologize a lot but then I keep doing the same thing. It’s really hard for me not to, I get why this frustrates people, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to put up with the inconvenience. However, people often assume that I keep inconveniencing them because I don’t respect them, and I want them to understand that that’s not what’s going on.
Hey that’s valid! A good friend of mine has the exact same thing. He’s up front about it, he apologizes when it’s excessive, and he’s more than happy to explain why it’s difficult for him. It’s just a thing, and if I’m going to be his friend, that means accepting it about him.
In other words, he’s done his best to help me understand him. Now it’s my turn to not be an asshole.
You’re still making it a bit too easy for you. “Not caring about other people’s feelings” is very close to “Not able to understand why somebody reacts and feels a certain way” but is definitely not the same thing.
I’m a parent to (at least one diagnosed so far) autistic child and there are plenty of situations in which this very kind, friendly and empathic person is simply unable to understand why one of the other siblings reacted as they did. Has nothing to do with whether they care or not.
OK, but being able to understand the reasons why a person is upset is irrelevant to how you respond when you’re made aware that your actions upset them.
Again, if you apologize and try to understand your mistake, you’re not an asshole.
“Not understanding other people’s feelings” is called lacking empathy, which is a common autism symptom. I’m saying this because it seems like you might be confusing “empathy” with caring about people, a misconception which harms people who lack empathy.
That’s an old misconception. Autistic people don’t lack empathy any more than neurotypical people. Autistic people may not react the way a neurotypical person expects somebody with empathy to react, but that doesn’t mean there’s no feeling of empathy. Sometimes we can easily understand someone’s feelings, but still not know what we’re expected to do in response to that information.
“I don’t care what’s wrong with you. If you’re an asshole, you’re an asshole”
This has stuck with me for about 15 years now. A neurodivergent stage crew member who was consistently an asshole was being an asshole again, so this other kid just yelled at him and told him off. Everyone in the room gave him the shocked Pikachu face because he yelled at the ND kid. Someone said “dude, you cant yell at him” and then he laid down this quote.
Something many groups need to hear, not just the ND crowd.
@5oap10116 @isaaclyman Being diagnosed with all kinds of crap before they finally settled on AuDHD, I’ve always sworn by “Diagnosises can be an explanation but never a shield.”
Own your shit.
The sentiment is right, but using the phrase wrong with you, might be a little harsh. There’s nothing wrong with them, they are who they are.
None of that excuses being an asshole though.
Wrong with you would be more like if they’re going through a breakup and they aren’t themselves, or going through grief over something etc.
But directed at a ND person where it can come off as being about their ND isn’t good.
Edit: “I don’t care what’s going on with someone, if they’re an asshole they’re an asshole” would be a better option
I don’t go around as a 30 something saying the words of a 15 yr old. Yes it is not as tactful as it should be and I understand the nuance but the idea is the same and I’m not going to change what happened.
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Chances are he thinks this is what it means to be a male friend. That doesn’t make it right of course but that’s probably what’s going on. This is likely due to him being abused as a child in some way and now he thinks it is normal to abuse others.
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Yeah I have two childhood friends that are brothers. Their other brother is very autistic. When we were kids a lot of people didn’t understand autism enough to get that while yes, his autism did affect the way in which he was a tremendous asshole, it didn’t cause it. He happened to have a shit personality and disability level autism
Elon Musk.
Hell in the UK we had the (ex?) host of MasterChef, Greg Wallace, accused of being inappropriate with women in the workplace and making them feel unsafe and uncomfortable around him - Nothing illegal (that I know of), sure, but enough that he was rightfully dropped from whatever broadcaster was employing him.
Cut to a week into the tabloid media meltdown, Greg claims he “thinks he’s on the spectrum” as an explanation for his sexually explicit and creepy behaviour around women. The usual shit where you’re neuro typical until you’re a prick then you’re actually an autistic smol bean uWu.
When that didn’t help, he then showed his true colours by claiming the “typical” kind of woman (I’m assuming he’s referring to the trope of “ugly” women complaining about sexual harassment) making the complaints that got him fired.
I think it depends. My son is deep on the spectrum. He’s pretty pleasant, and he can tell if he’s making someone upset or angry, but often has no idea why.
I could absolutely see him being rude or making someone uncomfortable without knowing it, and in many cases I think it would be a challenge to help him even comprehend how or why he was doing so, even if he could tell it was happening.
One of the things that makes me feel the worst for him is when he can tell he’s not handling a situation “correctly” but has no idea why. It really upsets him.
So yeah, I cut people who I think might be ND some slack.
Your kid doesn’t sound like an asshole, so IMO all good.
Seems like some users thought this thread was a free pass to question neurospicy folks legitimacy regardless of assholeishness. Cool lemmy.world, cool /s
It’s because the phrase “neurodivergence” is an umbrella term. It’s all but useless in the context given. That’s a fact no matter how cool and breezy you are about people with disabilities.
I have an older brother with cerebral palsy - I know no other life than one that sympathizes with people with disabilities. I dedicated my life to helping children with disabilities. I have worked with children with cerebral palsy, autism, adhd, dyspraxia, downs syndrome, retts syndrome, ALS and many other conditions and brain injuries for a chunk of my life spanning over 20 years. I was treating them from before Ritalin was used to treat patients with ADHD (in England at least).
The term “neurodivergence” is not useful in the context it is used in here. Everyone is neurodivergent, and the terms popularity modern times has tweaked it to mean something else that is not clear. A social media “tag” used as an umbrella term is just that. It’s not a diagnosis or an excuse because it’s not one thing.
It is exactly like saying “i have fibromyalgia” - because that is also an umbrella term that leads to the question, “What does that mean in this context?”
The umbrella term “neurodivergence” includes both conditions that aren’t an excuse and are an excuse for behaving like an asshole. Anyone can claim they are neurodivergent because they are. Therefore some people will use the term as an excuse for behaving badly no matter what their quirks are.
If everyone is neurodivergent then there would not be a term neurotypical, go educate yourself. No two brains are the same but there are ranges that be be used to identify non typical patterns.
Everyone is neurodivergent. The term is often used to describe people on the autistic spectrum. I think that something along those lines is what you meant to say while you told me to educate myself.
The thing is, championing neurodiversity is good for those on the autistic spectrum, but that doesn’t mean that neurodiversity doesn’t include all the other ways in which no two brains are the same. There is no diagnostic criteria for being neurodivergent. Two neurodivergent people may share no common ground at all.
You did not read.
Ok. Fine I get what you’re saying. I read the page from the university i work for, and also Harvards information. I didn’t read wikipedia.
Regardless, the exact same point can be made. Explain to me how this makes the term suitable in the context of this post.
My entire point is that a “neurodivergeant” person is not one kind of person. It’s many different kinds of people. It’s autistic people, it’s people with ADHD. It’s a broad term. I myself was thinking that of course antisocial personality disorder would be neurodivergeant and a reason to be perceived as an asshole. The post makes no sense because to answer it, you would have to evaluate every single kind of neurodivergeant person.
I had a friend like that. They weren’t always assholes, and we used to be good friends for over 10 years. But, they become an asshole eventually. I had to cut them off no-contact entirely because it was just unbelievable how disrespectful they became. Interestingly, the were blaringly neurodivergent, but denied it. I still can’t tell if they really thought they were a normie or they were passing as a normie and making excuses or outright denying their “quirks”. Either way, fuck them.
You do not have to be friends with anyone! :D
I thought what we had was special 😢
I think a fair number of self-proclaimed “neurodivergent” folks just like it because: a) They think it’s a free pass to be an asshole b) They think it indicates some sort of superpower with no downsides and that they are superior to “normal” people.
Knowing some clearly sincerely neurodivergent people I tend to be highly skeptical when people assert that status in an interaction where I wouldn’t otherwise be able to tell.
I’m ADHD and probably on the spectrum. Most of my friends are some level of both too.
There are still assholes who are also neurodivergent. I’ve met some. I avoid them. I will generally get along with other neurospicy people, especially if their combination is closer to my own, but an asshole is still an asshole.
Masking exists you know. Just because you can hide it doesn’t mean there isn’t more under the surface. This is more of a Autism thing but I think some ADHD people also mask.
So, for some honesty, I feel like there’s been a culture of folks treating “neurotypical” almost like a slur, like “neurodivergent” means better and thus folks thinking they need a diagnosis.
I know someone that self-diagnosed as autistic and was very excited to “finally make it formal” and shopped for a therapist that was qualified to diagnose and had even diagnosed a friend of theirs as on the spectrum. They were so pissed when after a couple of months of sessions the therapist continued to decline to issue a diagnosis. They couldn’t just be normal. I think most people I’ve heard personally declare themselves to be neurodivergent to be roughly in this camp.
I think popular internet culture is teaching people that a normal person has zero struggles with things like getting out of bed in the morning or being on time, and that if you have any whiff of not liking to do some unpleasant part of daily life then you are neurodivergent. It also tends to teach that neurodivergent people are smarter. I think this serves to dilute the reality of those with more serious issues. Similar to how a flood of “service animals” has diminished the experience of those with sincere need for them.
It isn’t possible to fake being ND. Faking it would require someone to mask like a ND person does which doesn’t seem likely. Any therapist who still is going off of dated information and stigmas should lose there ability to practice.
The point of that story was that someone I knew that saw an actual therapist still said they were ND and denied the therapist’s opinion that they were NT. They had a friend that did receive a diagnosis from that same therapist and based on my interactions with that friend, I could definitely understand. They went shopping for what they thought was an easy diagnosis and failed to get one, but declared the therapy just isn’t good and they were done with therapy and they will continue to declare themselves to be ND anyway, because they know they are.
I strongly suspect a lot of self proclaimed ND folks are declaring so without any diagnosis or even against a professional opnion to the contrary. There’s too much romanticism of it and of course it causes some people to gravitate towards it. The end result being a dilution of societal accomodations toward ND born out of skepticism of some generally obnoxious folks.
Self diagnosis is completely valid. I’m pretty sure NT people aren’t going around trying to be ND. At the end of the day if they relate to ND they probably are one. I think ND people are much more common than society wants us to believe
Prior to the 90s, I think your perspective is correct, that no one would go out of their way to claim a condition they did not have.
But the 90s blessed high functioning autism as Asperger’s, and a bunch of smart computer people at the same time started getting rich. The popular take away for the random person was that Asperger’s meant:
- You are smarter than other people
- You can’t be expected to be considerate to others or consider their viewpoints, because that’s just the way you would be
- You can’t be expected to really talk to people you don’t feel like talking to at all
So now you had a condition that confers intelligence at a time when computer nerd was suddenly respectable, and a condition that allows one to fully cave to discomfort that almost everyone feels to some extent (though the intent was to describe people utterly incapable, the practical result has been a lot of people having normal levels of discomfort wallowing in it).
Plus the modern terminology of “typical” versus “divergent”, where people naturally want to be “divergent” (so long as they are divergent just like everybody they like) and people generally don’t like the sound of being “typical”.
Again, this is not the professional perspective, it’s the layman’s perspective that drives people to self-diagnose as a path to superiority and/or not dealing with fairly normal levels of discomfort when dealing with other people.
That hasn’t been my experience but the demographic I hang about still has some stigma associated with being ND, so they wouldn’t “admit” to it unless it was relevant/apparent.
Curious if it’s regional or age related.
For example, at work where there’s a lot of 50+ people shaping the culture, I don’t think ND would be seen as an asset.
However, to me those that grew up when Asperger’s first hit the scene seemed more likely to treat it as “cool autism”, and migrated over to “high functioning autistic” when the DSM ditched it as a distinct diagnosis. I seem to recall some commentary at the time that the Asperger’s as a distinct diagnosis was more detrimental due to its popularity, and while formally the criteria for Asperger’s versus Autism would be similar, there was a sense that people should be more reluctant to diagnose as autistic than they were to diagnose Asperger’s.
I don’t think ADHD ever enjoyed status as a “cool” diagnosis though, but certainly in the mid 80s was overdiagnosed in children.
I don’t think ADHD ever enjoyed status as a “cool” diagnosis though
the last couple years on tiktok, but its tiktok so whatever
I have an overwhelming urge to shop now.
This meme brought to you by pɹɐɔɹǝʇsɐɯ
This drives me bananas.
On the one hand as someone with ASD, yeah, I would have loved to have a little more understanding growing up but on the other you do not get a free pass just because you are some flavor of “special”. Everyone is special. Everyone is a weird combination of neurotypcial and neurodivergent it’s just a matter of degree and how it’s all put together. When you say someone is neurotypical… how do you even know?
When you say that something is not your fault because you are neurodivergent did you even try to find a work-around? Did you try to find away to make the other person more comfortable? Did you try to exercise the understanding you demand of others? Or did you just say you don’t have to?
Yes, but it’s IMHO not as clear cut. Some of the things we do because of our executive function disorder can be interpreted as us being assholes by those we interact with. One can act like an asshole at times and not intrinsically be one. Some things are perceived as assholeish by some people but not others.
So my take on this is that they still need to be told they are behaving like an asshole. The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason. Like " Go away and come back when you have yourself under control and sorry this is hard for you."
Or a simple, “hey, that was rude. It hurt my feelings.” Most of the ND people I know would respond, “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to be a jerk. I’ll do better.”
Not all situations are simple. Someone is lashing out at people because their mother died. Everyone is understanding. But if you tell the person who is lashing out to cut it out because they’re being an asshole, then suddenly you’re an asshole, not the person behaving as an asshole initially.
There are a lot of similar situations with similar or other severity.
I guess MasterCard is either autistic or asshole now
Definitely asshole at the very least
I’m direct and highly value honesty, but I’ve learned that’s no excuse for lacking tact. Being a minimal degree of kind and polite to neurotypical people isn’t particularly difficult, it’s just learning to interface with someone whose emotional drivers you may not completely share. It’s easier than learning to interface with a nonverbal species like a cat or a parrot.
How did you learn? I’m asking because that’s not something I’m seeing discussed here.
I don’t even think most of the commenters here have given it any thought.
It’s kind of important to the topic because at least part of the problem is that education is lacking both in NT and ND people as far as how we both developed healthy boundaries to mitigate “being an asshole”.
If nobody tells you your behavior is not acceptable in a way you can comprehend then it’s a communication issue and and education issue. If it’s that then we should discuss that.
I started by reading “How to Gain Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. It’s a bit dated but was required for a college course. It helped me realize there were certain actions/routines that would give me consistently okay results with most NTs. Not great, just okay, but okay was a huge improvement.
That helped alleviate the often crippling anxiety I felt in many social situations with new people. Free to actually think when around NTs who weren’t charmed by my ND data dumps, perplexing eye contact, and random obsessions, I was able to actively observe social interactions between myself and others. From there, it was a matter of trying different things and learning to lick my wounds when I blew it. My standard apology for doing something that made someone uncomfortable was along the lines of "I’m so sorry, that came across wrong. What I was trying to convey is (X). I’m not the best communicator sometimes, but I’m working on it. Can we start over? " with direct eye contact and a strong, chagrined, “practiced in the mirror” smile.
That’s the jist of it. Getting over the basic skills and confidence hump is the hardest. Once you have those, it’s really no different that practicing a sport or playing a game. It’s learning to act but for the purpose of being genuine with those who might not understand your natural inclinations.
