Ubuntu was so good. Too bad my brother simply shut off my VM when I was using it
Does anyone really recommend Ubuntu these days? I think Mint has reigned supreme for years, at least for beginners.
I recommended Mint to my partner and she wasn’t too enthusiastic about it after trying, I have Ubuntu on one of my laptops where she has a guest account and she actually prefers it even after hours of use so her new laptop is getting 24.04. I did do the diligence of explaining that Ubuntu is to Canonical as Firefox is to Mozilla, and why some Linux heads aren’t a fan.
Since bookworm, I find little need to push them past Debian. It’s clean and runs all the things.
I barely see people recommend mint anymore. It like every other Ubuntu family distro keeps having too many issues and poor gaming support compared to the steamOS styled distros.
Everyone is going to bazzite or cachyOS as the new “noob” distros cause they just work and play steam games and have steam deck isos.
It’s funny to see so many different echochambers at play. 🤭 No offense of course.
Mint is still by far the most popular distro, I even saw Goodwill selling computers with it now. Ubuntu is also widely used, apparently it’s really popular in India(?). Meanwhile in hackspaces NixOS and Arch are super popular. Personally I like OpenSuse, therefore hear a lot about that family of distros. We’re existing in a super diverse ecosystem.
It’s just annoying when people recommend stuff not because they think it’s the best pick for the person who’s asking, but because they like it best (I swear on my grave, I god damn saw people recommending NixOS for elders and Arch Linux for productivity environments that must be 100% stable). Therefore I made a meme about it.
How does mint have “poor gaming support”?
How does mint have “poor gaming support”?
- The last time they tried it was ages ago, or they followed some old instructions.
- They’re trying to play a game that has serious anticheat aspirations and doesn’t run well on linux
- They want to play roblox.
Debian/ubuntu/arch is easy to use even as a beginner, just try NixOS and compare.
Tap for spoiler
I want to install fooFlorp2!
check nixpackages:
"
environment.systemPackages = [ pkgs.fooFlorp2 ];or nix-shell -p fooFlorp2 "
edit configuration.nix, add pkgs.fooFlorp2
install happens, won’t work, no mention about the binary
Web search
ohh you don’t install it with pkgs, there’s a systemd that has to be enabled, and some config wrapped around it.
But the documentation said…
The documentation doesn’t lie, but it often doesn’t give you the whole answer either.
I love nix, but installing anything interesting ends up with a lot of websearches.
On the upside, my home/work and travel pc’s are all just lockstep. anything I install on one just ends up on the others, and that’s something cool.
As a person who just barley figured out how to install Mint in some laptops most of that looks like a foreign language to me.
heh, that’s even the easy part, it has a whole language that comes with it too. Getting up and running on NixOS with home-manager and flakes makes Arch install look like Candy Crush.
But it has lots of super-powers once you learn it. Steep curve though, and it never gets fully better, to this day it’s a search or two when I install something I’ve never used before.
Imo a just works, deb based kde distro with nvidia drivers, flatpaks and no snaps is what we need to bring forth the year of the linux desktop.
And one that you can get pre-installed on devices you can purchase. The “just buy and be happy” aspect is important for a lot of people as well, not to mention the valuable customer support. People with dispensable income who wish for this are usually furthest away from hackerspace culture though, so a lot of Linux enthusiasts seemingly overlook it. Or, when it comes to far-left people around, want to overlook it.
If I remember correctly TuxedoOS checks all those boxes. And I think if you want “same but Gnome” that would be SlimbookOS. 🤔
Fedora KDE is not deb based, but dnf is better than apt anyway fight me
I don’t disagree but I still wanna fight, where do you wanna meet?
I dunno, we live in the age of ChatGPT. Between my generic but sufficient computer skills and ChatGPT’s hallucinatory ramblings, I’ve been smooth sailing on EndeavourOS for a few weeks now.
The EndeavourOS forums are also a really good help source if you wanna ditch the LLM, users there are pretty friendly and it’s probably where it sources most of it’s relevant info anyway.
Noted, thank you!
I’ve genuinely never seen a single person recommend NixOS to a new user, unless they already had advanced technical knowledge
Are you new around here?
You could just look at my profile to see that I’m not. I’m also not new to Linux communities in general. Doesn’t change that I’ve never seen someone recommend NixOS to a complete beginner. I have (rarely) seen Arch recommended, but those recommendations will generally be downvoted and have many replies disagreeing. Linux Mint is by far the distro I see most often recommended, followed by Fedora.
What I see recommended nowadays is indeed mint, various Ubuntu variations, arch (always, although a lot of the time in jest), Nix fairly regularly, and as for the classics: SuSE and Fedora, they’re rarely mentioned.
As an experienced Fedora User, I recommend mint to newbies. Fedora having to add RPMFusion and figure out how to properly install the correct Nvidia driver can be daunting for a new user who is used to downloading exes. I love fedora though, and if it were not for that one thing I would be recommending it.
No don’t use Nix they’re evil. Use Lix or Auxolotl or Tvix or Tangram or Brioche or Guix
Why is Nix evil? This is the first I heard
NixOS accepted a military company and Pentagon contractor as sponsor and only dropped it after backlash. Ever since then the trust in Nix governance is damaged, even with them trying to regain trust.
(There also are other problems it appears like a distro maintainer pushing new & superfluous core tools without any discussion about it, but this seems to be the biggest one)
Overall linux is insecure and trash. Everyone should use temple os. Its the only os whose creator made an os to evade cia, thus making it secure.
There was some politically charged drama… I think. There was some drama, anyway. I’m not clear on the details.
It was probably a Twitter-tier disagreement that was blown way out of proportion by a small group of people. If others have details, please don’t enlighten me, I value my ignorance.
I mean isn’t it accepted that NixOS is a terrible pick for a beginner, especially a non-technical one? I feel like even the Nix community doesn’t recommend the distro to complete beginners.
I use Nixos BTW.
And I can’t recommend it to anyone. Not even veterans.
I can only say if you like souls like games nixos might be your thing…
Lol I’ve been considering trying it and that might push me per the edge. The self hate is strong xD
If you do, this website is very helpful: https://search.nixos.org/options
Doubt, highly doubt it.
I use nixos btw
Complete with home manager, flakes, build server and automated deployments, the whole lot on machines from compute stick, gaming rig, hell even a surface. I have never had more free time than compared to arch. updates & config drift are no longer anything I worry about. Save so much time on rebuilds & customisations.
Nixos users never recommend it for new users. I always recommend mint or Ubuntu depending on the person and what they are used to. Seasoned Linux users i don’t even recommend it unless they have basic programming skills.
After that, bring it on, stick through the learning curve, you dont need the documentation. I only needed it at the start for a short period until it clicked and I figured it out. the repo and search has more than enough. In the repo you will find community builds and configs for a wide variety of hardware.
Seasoned Linux users i don’t even recommend it unless they have basic programming skills.
I’ve been using Linux about a decade and a half, and programming for almost twice that. I really just don’t like the Nix language (or DSLs altogether). I also had a poor experience with my first test of NixOS, by the docs, having not configured my networking stack, in making it impossible to fix without booting back to the live USB.
For people that do like the syntax and don’t mind DSLs, it’s pretty great and it’s excellent that the ideas have been propagating elsewhere. I love the concepts but not the implementation.
I’m not advanced, just a distrohopper for fun :-) but NixOs seemed excellent, you install like an other os, open the config file and write a list of what you want installed, rebuild and it’s all there. Then use it just like any other distro. That seems a good experience to me and if you are just a simple desktop user like me what else would you ever need to do? Am I right that all the homemanager and flakes business is optional and for people with more complicated requirements?
I really wish everyone thought like that, but I still see people recommending Nix, Arch, Void… and some go the ideological route and start recommending systemd-less only like Artix or ranting against anything that uses Flatpak. Those discussions can get messy, and they always alienate the person who asked. Unfortunately those with ideological reasons are always the loudest and present in basically every “Beginner’s Help” group.
I wouldn’t recommend vanilla Arch only because of the installation process. CachyOS that simplifies it is an extremely good pick for a person who already knows what a computer is, but wants to try a proper OS.
Arch mostly got it’s reputation in the early days. Today some things are a lot easier to do on Arch than on other distros, especially because AUR exists. Also, it built one of the best wikis over all that time.
Of the last 20 or so people iv helped swap over to Linux in the last year. They have all ended up just going straight to either endeavour or cachy.
The Ubuntu family distro like mint or pop always have some kinda of weird hardware problem with something. Everytime with out fail. Seriously I love the Ubuntu descendants like pop and mint. When they work, they just fucking work and are rock solid. But their it just works scope is just too damn narrow compared to arch for the freaks I know.
It’s amazing how much weird ass hardware people use that with out something as large as the aur, you just aren’t finding a reasonable solution. Fixes exist but ones that a total idiot can just install are rare. And fedora isnt much better in that regard.
Fedora also just has… Problems ane a community that makes it hard to tell new users to Google solutions
That or the “app stores” confuse the new users or cause problems inside of two weeks. Im always baffled Everytime I get a call and someone has managed to break their computer via a GUI package manager or app store.
Cachy just has everything games want pre installed and even the most nontechie gamers iv known basically hit the ground running with it. I think part of that is because it works for the exact use case a gamer would want basically out of the box with as little fiddling as needed and arch is bleeding edge enough to actually run new games reliably enough people don’t fuck with shit and break it trying to make things work.
For the rest endeavour has had the best rate at actually keeping people from just going back to windows.
Seriously wild how good endeavours conversion rate is.
Weird way to spell EndeavorOS
The devs of the OS spell it Endeavour. It’s one of those words that’s spelled slightly different in various parts of the English-speaking sphere. As it functions as a name here, I have no problem spelling it their way when referring to the OS.
EndeavorOS? Yay!
Weird way to spell EndeavorOS
With the missing ‘U’? I know, right? But it’s not weird; it’s just American, so it rewrites its history.
For most people though yeah, Debian is rock solid, only went arch on my desktop for nvidia drivers (and HDR), archinstall really simplifies installing it.
Arch and Debian wikis are both amazing sources of information, highly recommend for any distro.
I wish. People recommend Arch to beginners all the time. And then wonder why there’s so many “Linux is too hard” comments everywhere
Arch isn’t necessarily hard. It just is unstable plus it encourages dated ways of doing things.
Those make it hard
And it just seems towering overall with the insane egos of some Arch users on forums. It’s a good distro, just setting it up feels so tiring.
I feel like setting it up is easy (archinstall), maintaining it is the tiring part.
Its weird because Gentoo is actually more involved but the community seems to have none of the ego issues.
They had the same problem when it was relatively more popular.
It’s not hard if you’re into doing Linuxy stuff. A lot of new users are not, or find diving in too fast intimidating. Like it or not Arch is definitely in the deep end of the Linux pool.
NixOS consist of a bunch of options that you define using the nix programming language. Since it’s a programming language, everything is well defined and organised into single place.
Technically, someone could build a GUI configuration editor with sane defaults and clearly organised pages of settings, which generates a configuration for you. This could immediately change NixOS from the most tedious to a relatively easy to use distro.
They already built a GUI editor, but a programmer made it so it is actually harder to use than the text file
Lmao which is it?
Nixos conf editor, it shows less of the config on screen than a text editor
There’s a list of GUI editors here.
But I don’t know which one exactly they were talking about
And windows users are well known for their mastery of esoteric programming languages. Such as… um… ah… batch files, which, well, some of them can write. If they’re not more than four or five lines.
But that counts, right?Linux users can’t regedit. Regedit uses some weird programming language only known to a few windows grand masters.
It basically represents values with 16 possible symbols, ranging from 0 to f. We call it sixteendecimal. Very advanced. But nobody knows what they mean yet.
This should give you linux users a pause the next time you belittle windows users for their lack of computer knowledge!
Batch files¹, powershell, visual basic if you use Office, Lisp if you used AutoCAD back when macros were written in Lisp… 🤷♂️
¹- And, frankly, I doubt setting up NixOS is particularly more complex than setting up an autoexec.bat boot menu back when some programs (well, games are programs) wanted extended memory and some others wanted expanded memory (couldn’t have both modes at the same time, of course), and you had to make sure the drivers loaded in the most optimal order (which could vary depending on the aforementioned memory expanders, and which drivers the specific game actually needed) to fit as many as possible of them and DOS in high memory leaving as much as possible of the 640KB of system RAM free for the program… and I’m not even getting into the whole IRQ thing for soundcards and whatnot… and we had to do it all without Internet, learning by trial and error, or word of mouth, or from magazines…
Spoken like someone who’s never used nix before lol.
Good luck even having a question to ask, much less finding where to ask it
I don’t think I’ve needed to ask anyone anything when dealing with computers (except when helping someone with a self caused issue, of course, in which case the question is usually “why did you do this?”) since I was a little kid figuring out how to use my 286… I find that usually you just need to read the fucking screen (an extremely rare talent, I’ve come to realise), and in harder cases a bit of googling or, if push comes to shove, RTFMing seems to do the trick… but OK, we’ll see, I’ve been wanting to try NixOS for a while once I have the time, and my computer is getting old… maybe this summer I’ll find some time, better this than updating to Windows 11 in any case. 🤷♂️
@[email protected] I think they found you
I’m in everybody’s walls… whispering the words “NixOS…”
That’s where I went. Happy with my choice. Almost 2 years now.
“Arch” they just need to read the newsletter before updating.
“Gentoo” because fuck you personally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch
Linux From Scratch (LFS) is a type of a Linux installation and the name of a book written by Gerard Beekmans, and as of May 2021, mainly maintained by Bruce Dubbs. The book gives readers instructions on how to build a Linux system from source. The book is available freely from the Linux From Scratch site.
LWN.net reviewed LFS in 2004:[19]
Linux From Scratch is a wonderful project. It should become a compulsory reading material for all Linux training courses, and something that every Linux enthusiast should complete at least once. This would also create another interesting side effect: people who tend to be quick in expressing dissatisfaction on the distributions’ mailing lists and forums would probably show a lot more respect for the developers. Installing a ready-made distribution is a trivial task. Building up a set of 4 CDs containing a stable, secure and reliable operating system, plus thousands of applications, is most definitely not.
I did this once. I got to a command line installation and I think I either borked installing a usable desktop environment, or I was just sick of it all and decided I wouln’t be getting working hibernation or Wi-Fi this way anyway and the slightly lower resources used wasn’t worth it.
I think I had tried Gentoo before that and must have decided I didn’t like myself for some reason.
“Some DIY is fun, some is stuff we do by mistake because ‘well how hard can it be anyway?’ and it teaches us a lot for the next project. The rest we do purely to spite ourselves, because we should be able to do it, damnit!”
-thing I said to a friend who asked why I was putting so much effort on myself when I could just buy a flat-pack for the same cost and 99% less effort.
This just reminds me of my first experience with Linux in the late 90’s. Yes they had installers that got the base system working, but then you had to compile so much.
Which distro should I pick?
@[email protected]: No
Before upgrading, users are expected to visit the Arch Linux home page to check the latest news, or alternatively subscribe to the RSS feed or the arch-announce mailing list. When updates require out-of-the-ordinary user intervention (more than what can be handled simply by following the instructions given by pacman), an appropriate news post will be made.
alias yay=“yay -Pw; yay”
Today I learned, thanks.
Documentation? For Nix? Yeah right.
Did you know that the suffix for nix documentation files is, coincidentally, .nix?
The code of the packages is the documentation. So the newcomers better start learning Nix language and reading the paper about how Nix works under the hood before they get started! /s
But seriously, I used NixOs for about 2 years almost 10 years ago and while it was/is fascinating when you have everything setup, getting there and maintaining everything across so many packages that each have their own way of configuring them took hundreds of hours. I’m back on Arch using a custom tool I wrote to fully manage my configs, packages, dotfiles etc.
The way I remember it is that there is no consistency across Nix packages and it all feels like a giant puzzle for people who enjoy spending time configuring more than actually using the computer. And I say that as someone who actually enjoyed getting into that when I had unlimited time.
I dunno man. I spent way less time configuring my machines on NixOS because it just works. But in fairness, that is after I have spent a lot of time learning it (compared to classic systems that is, not a lot compared to NixOS maintainers who write way better module than I do). Now that there is a foundation, I just run the updates. It’s almost scarily stable. And the ability to group related settings together is such a bliss because you no longer wonder about “what did I do to enable X”, just open the file, it’s all in one place. Stuff that could be three completely different things (e.g. a service specific config file, a PAM entry and the service activation itself in effectively 5 lines. Want to do something for multiple services? Just map over their list. Etc
I happily used Arch for 15 years and after trying NixOS on a decommissioned machine for one day I switched over everything as fast as possible. And I did try out Ansible on Arch, so it’s not like I didn’t try management via a tool. But using a system like NixOS just solves sooo many potential issues.
It obviously comes with downsides, for example there is no quick configuration change. Changing something small requires another evaluation. Still worth it
Okay, but when I figure it out on my desktop I just copy paste the exact snippet to my laptop and it just works.
Do you think I can remember the steps I took to fix my issue with Ubuntu? I don’t remember what file I modified and where I put some config file.
But to be fair, Nix is not the only answer to that. There are lots of tools for just dotfiles but you can also build something using e.g. ansible to manage everything.
All my computers have their config in a git repo. That includes users, packages, services, dotfiles, /etc configs and so on. I used ansible before writing my own tool. I can install Arch from scratch and only need to partition, run one script and then apply my config on first boot using my tool to have my system restored. I know it’s not as declarative and absolute/reproducible as Nix, but it works and it’s way less painful than my last attempt at giving NixOS a go.
Either my Ansible knowledge is too limited which is entirely possible, or you can’t do stuff there that’s possible with Nix. Let’s stay go with my example that you have something that requires changes in PAM. So you write an Ansible file installing the package (which is distribution-specific, so you’re losing one advantage you had over NixOS), enable the service and add your entries to the respective PAM file (e.g. login because you want to enable user authentication against kanidm on your machine). The ordering in these files matter. Sure you have
insertbeforeandinsertafterforlineinfileandblockinfile, but this basically requires you to know the rest of the file in advance… not a problem if your system is always the same, but you don’t have the flexibility and composability that Nix offers.I’d say, from my experience with Ansible, that it can absolutely do all of that. Might be able to use a single task for the package install, if the distro supports the generic
packagemodule. There’s also a pamd module that would likely cover your needs there. If not, it would still be possible with a custom module or some Xinfile fuckery (if it can be fine programmatically, it can be done in Ansible, more niche things may require writing code, however).It would not be as terse though. Really wish there was a good middle ground.
It can do that, but it gets more complicated because you are doing this is in an imperative way. For example, in Nix it’s trivial to change the config and remove something.
In ansible there’s no guarantee installing a package and removing it won’t have side effects. You could install a DE and decide to switch back, but it already changed some files on your system
This is true. It can be done but would require functionality not included in stock Ansible.
I’m about neck deep in ancible/salt/chef over the years at work.
They are great tools for simple configurations where multiple people are needed in the kitchen, but they require meticulous curation.
But I buy a new laptop, I slap in my USB vanilla Nix ISO, drop two config files in /etc/nixos call rebuild and I’m done.
Updating my packages to latest is a single command. Adding a package is a single line. And the most powerful thing, nix-shell -p whatever install whatever for that session. I don’t even bother putting most stuff into my declaritive configs, nix-shell -p ffmpeg, when I exit it’s no longer available.
And if I do something awful to my config and brick it, it’s just one grub menu to go back to the previous version.
I see a lot og talk here abotu wha tis best. I want to play my games and work on my papers. I have mint right now but is there a better choice fro a beginner?
If you’re already on Mint and it works for you it’s a great OS to work with, so no inherent reason to switch. However if you look for something more modern with the same Desktop Environment as Mint (Cinnamon) perhaps Fedora Cinnamon is something for you (doesn’t use apt though). The most modern features you’ll find on a distro with KDE (Cinnamon for example is behind with support for modern stuff like HDR).
You’ll get tons of recommendations when it comes to modern KDE distros. Personally given you said you’re a beginner I’d suggest giving TuxedoOS a shot, as they
- Got the Nvidia drivers preinstalled
- Are based on Ubuntu (Best compatibility)…
- …which is the same base as Linux Mint (so .deb still work)
- Got the App Store all set up optimally (some distros don’t)
- There’s a hardware supplier if you ever look for sth.
Some negatives:
- Comes with Tuxedo Software superfluous to you (removable of course)
Depending on your beliefs it might be a negative that it’s made by a company. However Tuxedo is based in Germany (therefore GDPR applies), they’ve people work full-time on it and a good track record for many years now. Also having the Nvidia driver pre-installed is really good in my experience, only very few distros do that due to license stuff. Otherwise of course there’s also Kubuntu or Fedora for something with KDE. You can test all of them on DistroSea in your browser.
Feel free to ask anything. 🙂
@Natanox Seems like NixOS replaced Arch as both a local extremist cult and the most effective newbie repellent.
What’s funny to me here is that, as a long time Arch user, I have been considering switching to NixOS. One of the most terrifying thoughts to me is that after using the same Arch install for 2 years I will spend ages trying to recreate it if I ever have to. Oh, that and Nix letting you test packages seems like a cool feature.
I’ve been on arch around a year now and also considered the jump to NixOS. I was actually dual booting it with arch for awhile and I found pretty quickly that the shit documentation was a huge turn off for me. I ended up nuking the nix partition and reclaiming it for arch.
This is my biggest issue. I am utterly spoiled to the exquisiteness that is Arch’s Wiki…
I mean the Arch wiki mostly works on NixOS too. The problem with NixOS documentation is that there aren’t many examples for the Nix language itself.
I’ve found that the Arch wiki works for most distros if you know how to translate it. There have been multiple times I’ve searched how to do something or how to fix something in Linux and the only useful result is an arch forum or wiki. All I had to do is translate the steps for debian/ubuntu/opensuse/fedora/rpiOS, etc.
The process was usually “search this error” > “this part” isn’t working, search “this part error” > arch forum showing steps to fix. Search “where the fuck is this file in <distro>”. Get “it’s usually here, here, or over here”, then do arch steps.
Then there’s opensuse, and there’s fucking camelcase capitals in their packages (NetworkManager? Seriously?) so I have to Google “opensuse <command/application> package” like a fucking rube.
Yeah one nice thing about nixos is that their package search website is really good. You can also search for config options with examples.
What is the Nix language like?
If Haskell and json had a baby
Hmm, that sounds more like dhall
Terrible. Unless you like Haskell, DSLs, and the like.
Arch wiki is the documentation gold standard
That and the need to learn a bespoke, weird programming language that will only ever be useful for this one thing have really turned me off of that distro.
Definitely. Why not use something off the shelf! That by itself would make it much more approachable
I was in the same boat two years ago.
What I did is that I’ve setup a VM with NixOS in it to play with, learn the language and tweak the configuration file.
The great thing about NixOS is that once I was feeling confident enough to switch I installed NixOS on bare metal, loaded the configuration file I prepared in the VM and I instantly had everything installed and running. (Except for the NVidia drivers, fuck nvidia)
Since then I’ve stayed in nixos and I’m not looking back.
This would likely be the plan. This is solid advice really for anyone swapping distros really.
The nice thing is that NixOS will keep your setup and all your tweaks if you ever need to reinstall. It’s designed to solve that exact problem.
One way of switching over would be to carry over your homedir and just starting with migrating packages and config as a first step.
I am about to switch away from arch that I installed 5 years ago. It’s a daunting thought isn’t it?
