I don’t know - the term “ableist” has certainly spiked in popularity in the last ten years or so, but even in the 90’s you’d get a bollocking for throwing around the terms “mong” or “spaz” or “flid” within earshot of a teacher.
I mean, I can see why - I hate the terms myself now. but when you’re in single digits of age, it’s just used as another derisory term rather than a specific slight at someone’s physical or mental development challenges.
It still got you in hot water if you were daft enough to get caught shouting it though.
Same, but in a suburban area (suburb of major metro). Never heard of “ablism” until I found leftist communities like this online, and I grew up in a left leaning area. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term in person, and I have kids about OP’s claimed age.
I went to catholic schools in a right leaning area, but while the term wasn’t used we did have to watch an in school video in which people with downs syndrome talked about how that word made them feel like shit and had to learn how to treat other disabled people. I think it worked because people only ever picked on me for being a loser, not for being hard of hearing.
Really? I was in a pretty medium sized city (30-40k people, suburb of 1M+ city), and we used it all the time as kids. I have kids about the age of OP and live in a similar sized city, and I catch my kids using similar language.
I grew up in a liberal area and now live in a conservative one. It would take a lot more effort than that to get suspended from elementary school, you basically need to actually beat someone up or use drugs in school to do that.
Are you saying used the word ableist? Or the r word? I’m saying the r word was used frequently in elementary and middle school and wonder how young OP must be.
I have literally never heard “ableist” in real life.
We used the word “retard” (the R word in case it gets censored on your instance) a ton as kids to insult each other (e.g. for doing poorly at something), and I’ve heard my kids say it as well. I personally don’t see the word nearly as problematic as the n word, because I’ve literally never heard it used to insult someone with an actual mental disability (have heard “mental retardation” [censor?] to describe such a condition though), it’s only used to tease friends.
I crack down on it, but mostly because we have a few people with such conditions in our community and I’d hate for them to be offended at something my kids say off hand. I don’t see it as “ableist” or whatever, and most don’t seem to associate it with people’s actual mental development, and instead I hear “slow,” which is much less censored and IMO more offensive since it sounds like you’re trying to hide a more ugly word in the hope that they won’t understand (and I bet they do). I crack down on any potential slurs, but it wasn’t that long ago that “idiot” meant much the same as “retard” (again, potential censored r word) does now, so banning its use just retards (“slows”, if censored) that process.
I think “the left” (not sure who to point at here, but they largely seem leftist) have gone too far down the “inclusive language” rabbit hole here and often do harm than good (e.g. “latinx” is offensive because it came from English speakers, not the Latino community). Creating special terms just highlights differences instead of focusing on similarities, which IMO causes more problems than it solves. But I also don’t want to offend anyone, so I try to enforce clean language and stick to technical terms (and not academic terms that dance around the issue) for things when I’m unsure of the acceptable parlance. I’ll ask as well, e.g. I use “black” since that’s what my black friends prefer. The “right” takes things too far the other direction, so I stick somewhere in the middle and try to ask when unsure.
You actually have made me think if I heard it in school or on reddit. Outside of newspapers, the internet, and universities this sort of rhetoric is pretty rare, I agree. But I’m in academia so I see it all the time.
We’re on the same page. My school used those a lot. I also agree that inclusive language and maybe even add identity politics has gone so far that it’s missed the point. Who actually gets offended at those? Middle school had people using a lot of n-words, retards, or everything was gay, maybe even fg. For the most part I think they ought to be not used. But it makes me think of the South Park episode where the Harley Davidson bike drivers come into town and all the kids are calling them fgs for how they’re acting and they get in trouble but they make the point they in no way are trying to be offensive to homosexuals. It’s weird that many of these words except for the n-word are taken as blanket unacceptable words even when that’s not their use case. Like calling wrestling gay was not an attack on lgbt people. But even typing this out I fear someone may be offended, which I do not want!
Latinx is probably the best example of how ridiculous it is. Seems Latine is much more reasonable and already used in SA.
I feel like leftists outside of moderate democrats may not have the rhetoric as much.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on how you handle it with your children. Mine is too young but I do need to consider this.
It’s weird that many of these words except for the n-word are taken as blanket unacceptable words even when that’s not their use case.
Exactly. We just substitute other words, for example, “beta” means pretty much the same thing that “gay” and “fag” used to mean as kids.
But even typing this out I fear someone may be offended, which I do not want!
And that’s the crux of the problem. Most of those being offended aren’t even targeted by those terms. Look at the PC term we used in the 90s and 00s (and maybe earlier idk) for black people, “African American,” which was actually more offensive since it implied that they’re immigrants or whatever despite having deeper American roots than most Americans.
The right takes this too far the other direction. But like I like to say, the truth (or best solution, in this case) lies somewhere in the middle. In this case, I think it’s closer to the left, but the mainstream left takes it way too far.
When in doubt, ask. If you can’t ask, use technical terms, but really try to just ask.
Seems Latine is much more reasonable and already used in SA.
Exactly. But nobody bothered to ask, they just injected their own opinions.
And that’s the crux of the problem. Most of those being offended aren’t even targeted by those terms. Look at the PC term we used in the 90s and 00s (and maybe earlier idk) for black people, “African American,” which was actually more offensive since it implied that they’re immigrants or whatever despite having deeper American roots than most Americans.
I think the answer is typically younger teens-30s white people who get offended on others behalf. You’ve framed this in an interesting way. IDEK why I’ve been led to think that way. I know I don’t want to think like the right does. And I disagree with how radically anti-logic academia can be but I do try to speak carefully within that setting.
It’s almost as if white/cis/straight people are taking the potential suffering of non-whites and making it their own. Or at least living in a white savior fantasy.
They could be in 4th grade in 2010, and be 25 now posting this. I could also believe that elementary school teachers could be among the first 5% of people to adopt a new super-inclusive type of brand new lefty language that’s just starting to be used for a new type of friendly inclusiveness in 2000.
elementary school teachers could be among the first 5% of people to adopt a new super-inclusive type of brand new lefty language
Elementary school teachers are also more likely to crack down on any sort of insulting language in general. I remember when I was a kid in the 4th grade, our teacher would punish us for asking, “So?” So was short for ‘So what?’ At the time it was (sometimes properly, give me a break, Mrs. H) a way to insultingly say that someone else’s statement was meaningless.
It wasn’t because it was ableist, or anything else you could point a finger to except insulting, and teachers head that sort of interaction off early.
I’m about 10 years older and have never heard the term in person, only in lefty online communities like Lemmy. I even took an ASL class from a deaf person (highly recommend, though maybe my teacher just rocked) as an adult with my SO, and we didn’t even use the term “ablism,” but instead just “hearing” to describe people who aren’t deaf (so the concept, not the term). That would’ve been mid to late 2010s, IIRC.
Couple that with the claimed suspension in 4th grade, and I have serious doubts any of this happened. To get suspended, you need to be starting fist fights or something, even cussing or intentionally insulting people would probably only land normal detention.
So as someone hard of hearing, please don’t get your understanding of disabled Americans from the deaf, we’re opinionated in ways that folks like the blind and mobility assisted don’t really see and can’t really go along with. We are however starting to talk about audism but you aren’t really going to see talk of audism in an asl class. Maybe the term will be used in the context of mainstreaming.
But yeah this is veering into cultural correctness vs political correctness.
And yeah, the thing that surprised me by dipping my toes in the water was how vibrant the deaf community is. It’s an entire subculture that most won’t get to experience. I think it’s awesome.
Yeah its awesome and I love it in my own way. It definitely has issues, notably for a long time it was particularly hostile to hard of hearing people who don’t sign, but that’s been changing over the past few decades as both groups have been working to heal that divide. And I think that’s in part thanks to increasing discussions of ableism and audism as well as the social model of disability bridging the gap between the deaf understanding of “we aren’t disabled, we live fine” and the hard of hearing understanding of “we are absolutely disabled look at how hard we have to struggle in this society.”
And stuff like that, and audism and ablism aren’t really the things you’re going to be taught in an asl class for the same reasons they aren’t going to teach you much about American intervention in south America in a Spanish class. The goal is to get you in a place that you can communicate with native speakers/signers and have enough appreciation of the culture to both want to and to not make an ass of yourself.
And so on that I should say these terms gave me voice to my struggles. The deaf community taught me that the fact that my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all were told by experts not to teach their hard of hearing child sign language (because we might prefer it and not bother learning English) was a form of systemic oppression. As is the fact that this language which is just generally useful to most people in some contexts, especially as most people will lose their hearing just isn’t bothered to be taught to most people.
The politically correct people are trying even when they miss the mark. When you get to the point of the part of the left that’s long been in discussion of ablism I actually think that’s where you get radical shit, like big queer events often have 'terps, and I’ve even been to a festival that had a deaf section to the camping area.
told by experts not to teach their hard of hearing child sign language
That’s incredibly dumb. In fact, I think everyone in the US should learn basic ASL, enough to understand basic grammar and ask how to sign an unfamiliar word. Just doing that should give people an appreciation for what it means to be differently abled.
My ASL teacher was incredibly good at lip reading, yet insisted we try signing esp when frustrated (we’d say it out loud as well so she could understand us). That’s how it should be taught. I gained a lot of appreciation for accessibility from that class because I was forced onto the other side of that issue for a few weeks.
The politically correct people are trying even when they miss the mark.
I hate to generalize, but I think many if not most are doing it for the wrong reasons, which is why they miss the mark. Just like the far right attacks minorities for their own gain (common enemy), the left “rescues” the minorities for their own gain. It’s less about actually helping people and instead being seen helping people.
It’s stupid. If they actually wanted to solve problems, they’d talk to the communities instead of just throwing out solutions to perceived problems so they look good to the majority.
I’m sure there are a lot of genuine people among the PC camp and they’re just getting bad information from influencers. My frustration lies with the bad information, not the rank and file.
How old are they that they called labeled as ableist? This would not have happened in 2000s elementary
I don’t know - the term “ableist” has certainly spiked in popularity in the last ten years or so, but even in the 90’s you’d get a bollocking for throwing around the terms “mong” or “spaz” or “flid” within earshot of a teacher.
I mean, I can see why - I hate the terms myself now. but when you’re in single digits of age, it’s just used as another derisory term rather than a specific slight at someone’s physical or mental development challenges.
It still got you in hot water if you were daft enough to get caught shouting it though.
I’m not native and I discovered the word by reading a Lemmy community’s rules.
I had a teacher in the 90’s call me a spaz.
Spaz was very mild in the US and very serious in the UK. Meant kinda different things too.
The opposite for extremity in these countries at the time was fanny. Meant completely different things.
Were you in a big city? Mine was pretty small. I wonder if that has to do with it? I never heard the word until maybe high school or college
Nah I was in a pretty small town, semi-rural but not buttfuck-nowhere either.
It certainly wasn’t labelled “ableist” then, it was simply “being a little shit” - I only really learned of the term ableism around 10-15 years ago.
Same, but in a suburban area (suburb of major metro). Never heard of “ablism” until I found leftist communities like this online, and I grew up in a left leaning area. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term in person, and I have kids about OP’s claimed age.
I went to catholic schools in a right leaning area, but while the term wasn’t used we did have to watch an in school video in which people with downs syndrome talked about how that word made them feel like shit and had to learn how to treat other disabled people. I think it worked because people only ever picked on me for being a loser, not for being hard of hearing.
That’s pretty wholesome. Kids can be brutal, sorry you were picked on anyway.
Really? I was in a pretty medium sized city (30-40k people, suburb of 1M+ city), and we used it all the time as kids. I have kids about the age of OP and live in a similar sized city, and I catch my kids using similar language.
I grew up in a liberal area and now live in a conservative one. It would take a lot more effort than that to get suspended from elementary school, you basically need to actually beat someone up or use drugs in school to do that.
Are you saying used the word ableist? Or the r word? I’m saying the r word was used frequently in elementary and middle school and wonder how young OP must be.
I have literally never heard “ableist” in real life.
We used the word “retard” (the R word in case it gets censored on your instance) a ton as kids to insult each other (e.g. for doing poorly at something), and I’ve heard my kids say it as well. I personally don’t see the word nearly as problematic as the n word, because I’ve literally never heard it used to insult someone with an actual mental disability (have heard “mental retardation” [censor?] to describe such a condition though), it’s only used to tease friends.
I crack down on it, but mostly because we have a few people with such conditions in our community and I’d hate for them to be offended at something my kids say off hand. I don’t see it as “ableist” or whatever, and most don’t seem to associate it with people’s actual mental development, and instead I hear “slow,” which is much less censored and IMO more offensive since it sounds like you’re trying to hide a more ugly word in the hope that they won’t understand (and I bet they do). I crack down on any potential slurs, but it wasn’t that long ago that “idiot” meant much the same as “retard” (again, potential censored r word) does now, so banning its use just retards (“slows”, if censored) that process.
I think “the left” (not sure who to point at here, but they largely seem leftist) have gone too far down the “inclusive language” rabbit hole here and often do harm than good (e.g. “latinx” is offensive because it came from English speakers, not the Latino community). Creating special terms just highlights differences instead of focusing on similarities, which IMO causes more problems than it solves. But I also don’t want to offend anyone, so I try to enforce clean language and stick to technical terms (and not academic terms that dance around the issue) for things when I’m unsure of the acceptable parlance. I’ll ask as well, e.g. I use “black” since that’s what my black friends prefer. The “right” takes things too far the other direction, so I stick somewhere in the middle and try to ask when unsure.
You actually have made me think if I heard it in school or on reddit. Outside of newspapers, the internet, and universities this sort of rhetoric is pretty rare, I agree. But I’m in academia so I see it all the time.
We’re on the same page. My school used those a lot. I also agree that inclusive language and maybe even add identity politics has gone so far that it’s missed the point. Who actually gets offended at those? Middle school had people using a lot of n-words, retards, or everything was gay, maybe even fg. For the most part I think they ought to be not used. But it makes me think of the South Park episode where the Harley Davidson bike drivers come into town and all the kids are calling them fgs for how they’re acting and they get in trouble but they make the point they in no way are trying to be offensive to homosexuals. It’s weird that many of these words except for the n-word are taken as blanket unacceptable words even when that’s not their use case. Like calling wrestling gay was not an attack on lgbt people. But even typing this out I fear someone may be offended, which I do not want!
Latinx is probably the best example of how ridiculous it is. Seems Latine is much more reasonable and already used in SA.
I feel like leftists outside of moderate democrats may not have the rhetoric as much.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on how you handle it with your children. Mine is too young but I do need to consider this.
Exactly. We just substitute other words, for example, “beta” means pretty much the same thing that “gay” and “fag” used to mean as kids.
And that’s the crux of the problem. Most of those being offended aren’t even targeted by those terms. Look at the PC term we used in the 90s and 00s (and maybe earlier idk) for black people, “African American,” which was actually more offensive since it implied that they’re immigrants or whatever despite having deeper American roots than most Americans.
The right takes this too far the other direction. But like I like to say, the truth (or best solution, in this case) lies somewhere in the middle. In this case, I think it’s closer to the left, but the mainstream left takes it way too far.
When in doubt, ask. If you can’t ask, use technical terms, but really try to just ask.
Exactly. But nobody bothered to ask, they just injected their own opinions.
I think the answer is typically younger teens-30s white people who get offended on others behalf. You’ve framed this in an interesting way. IDEK why I’ve been led to think that way. I know I don’t want to think like the right does. And I disagree with how radically anti-logic academia can be but I do try to speak carefully within that setting.
It’s almost as if white/cis/straight people are taking the potential suffering of non-whites and making it their own. Or at least living in a white savior fantasy.
Hm.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=ableist&year_start=1990&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3
They could be in 4th grade in 2010, and be 25 now posting this. I could also believe that elementary school teachers could be among the first 5% of people to adopt a new super-inclusive type of brand new lefty language that’s just starting to be used for a new type of friendly inclusiveness in 2000.
Elementary school teachers are also more likely to crack down on any sort of insulting language in general. I remember when I was a kid in the 4th grade, our teacher would punish us for asking, “So?” So was short for ‘So what?’ At the time it was (sometimes properly, give me a break, Mrs. H) a way to insultingly say that someone else’s statement was meaningless.
It wasn’t because it was ableist, or anything else you could point a finger to except insulting, and teachers head that sort of interaction off early.
Makes sense.
I’m about 10 years older and have never heard the term in person, only in lefty online communities like Lemmy. I even took an ASL class from a deaf person (highly recommend, though maybe my teacher just rocked) as an adult with my SO, and we didn’t even use the term “ablism,” but instead just “hearing” to describe people who aren’t deaf (so the concept, not the term). That would’ve been mid to late 2010s, IIRC.
Couple that with the claimed suspension in 4th grade, and I have serious doubts any of this happened. To get suspended, you need to be starting fist fights or something, even cussing or intentionally insulting people would probably only land normal detention.
So as someone hard of hearing, please don’t get your understanding of disabled Americans from the deaf, we’re opinionated in ways that folks like the blind and mobility assisted don’t really see and can’t really go along with. We are however starting to talk about audism but you aren’t really going to see talk of audism in an asl class. Maybe the term will be used in the context of mainstreaming.
But yeah this is veering into cultural correctness vs political correctness.
I see what you did there. sorry
And yeah, the thing that surprised me by dipping my toes in the water was how vibrant the deaf community is. It’s an entire subculture that most won’t get to experience. I think it’s awesome.
Yeah its awesome and I love it in my own way. It definitely has issues, notably for a long time it was particularly hostile to hard of hearing people who don’t sign, but that’s been changing over the past few decades as both groups have been working to heal that divide. And I think that’s in part thanks to increasing discussions of ableism and audism as well as the social model of disability bridging the gap between the deaf understanding of “we aren’t disabled, we live fine” and the hard of hearing understanding of “we are absolutely disabled look at how hard we have to struggle in this society.”
And stuff like that, and audism and ablism aren’t really the things you’re going to be taught in an asl class for the same reasons they aren’t going to teach you much about American intervention in south America in a Spanish class. The goal is to get you in a place that you can communicate with native speakers/signers and have enough appreciation of the culture to both want to and to not make an ass of yourself.
And so on that I should say these terms gave me voice to my struggles. The deaf community taught me that the fact that my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all were told by experts not to teach their hard of hearing child sign language (because we might prefer it and not bother learning English) was a form of systemic oppression. As is the fact that this language which is just generally useful to most people in some contexts, especially as most people will lose their hearing just isn’t bothered to be taught to most people.
The politically correct people are trying even when they miss the mark. When you get to the point of the part of the left that’s long been in discussion of ablism I actually think that’s where you get radical shit, like big queer events often have 'terps, and I’ve even been to a festival that had a deaf section to the camping area.
Idk this turned into a rant, sorry
That’s incredibly dumb. In fact, I think everyone in the US should learn basic ASL, enough to understand basic grammar and ask how to sign an unfamiliar word. Just doing that should give people an appreciation for what it means to be differently abled.
My ASL teacher was incredibly good at lip reading, yet insisted we try signing esp when frustrated (we’d say it out loud as well so she could understand us). That’s how it should be taught. I gained a lot of appreciation for accessibility from that class because I was forced onto the other side of that issue for a few weeks.
I hate to generalize, but I think many if not most are doing it for the wrong reasons, which is why they miss the mark. Just like the far right attacks minorities for their own gain (common enemy), the left “rescues” the minorities for their own gain. It’s less about actually helping people and instead being seen helping people.
It’s stupid. If they actually wanted to solve problems, they’d talk to the communities instead of just throwing out solutions to perceived problems so they look good to the majority.
I’m sure there are a lot of genuine people among the PC camp and they’re just getting bad information from influencers. My frustration lies with the bad information, not the rank and file.
Interesting!
Could be that they didn’t say ableist at the time it happened but anon remembers it that way it just tells it that way.
True, can’t trust it anyways
I was in 1st grade for 9/11 and I’m too damn old for 4chan (30)