Is it weird that I’m about to go full circle? Started on consoles. Switched to PC around 2010, and now I’m kind of leaning towards consoles again. Maybe it’s my setup for my rig, I can not stand headphones, a smallish monitor, or a computer chair to game in anymore. I’ve setup myself to be able to play games on my couch with my pc, but the fact that I never own a physical copy of a game bothers me so much - as I’ve gotten older I cherish the physical copies of games that I have and it’s nice to go back and boot up my old console and play it no problem whenever I want. Can’t really say that about PC barring GOG’s attempt to preserve games. Because as it stands now, at some point a game played on PC will be rendered unplayable unless you really go through some hoops to get it running right. A small example would be Fallout 3 needs a mod to properly use RAM because it was only designed for a small amount (if I remember correctly).
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My man, if you read what I said on this thread, you’d understand that I’ve recently moved from mainly gaming on a traditional desktop setup to gaming on a couch. I was only voicing my new feelings I’ve developed about gaming on my desk instead of couch. For a long time I didn’t mind it but the past year or so I’ve had a different opinion. I was talking about making a little setup for using keyboard and mouse on my couch on a different comment. Sorry if I didn’t clarify this well enough.
I know. I commented before finishing your comment and immediately deleted it, but it didn’t actually delete. Happens to me all the time on Lemmy.
My bad; please ignore that comment.
All good! Brothers in (couch) gaming!
So while not entirely related, I have a question.
I’ve got a Windows 10 box hooked to my TV and you’re right, it’s great.
Until you end up with fonts so small they’re unreadable, even with a 300% scaling on the 4k TV because it seems like every third random gaming piece of software just fucking ignore scaling.
You ever find a working solution to that?
My ass is old, and trying to do couch gaming from a PC means it’s a 50/50 chance I’m either squinting and giving myself a headache or having to walk over to the tv to read whatever stupid shit some game has decided to use 8pt font for.
My solution is to simply sit closer. I only need 125% scaling.
If that’s not an option for you, you can always hit WinKey++ for the hard-to-read parts. There’s also Ctrl++ for browsers.
I’m not the one asked, but since i am owner of an old ass myself i’ll chip in. My solution would be to reduce the desktop resolution if desktop readability is the problem. 4k is probably not the resolution you are gaming at? even if you do, you can just select a lower desktop resolution and crank it up when gaming (if the game supports scaling). other than that i can only recommend using magnification tools for the desktop and i don’t think there are any solutions for games that don’t bring their own scaling.
for my part, i use steams big picture mode as uion the tv, which works on any resolution.
Your physical copies are not immune to that. GOG is likely as good as it gets. Physical copies often still need patching out of the box, and the consoles that they run on are so inherently tied to the internet and their operating systems that it’s a risky wager to bet that they’ll last as long as your NES. For what it’s worth, Fallout 3 is running quite well via Proton, but I did have to edit an INI file to lock it to 60 FPS on a monitor that exceeds that refresh rate; your console version would have its own compromises to wade through, because it’s not exactly an immaculate piece of software.
Time always marches on. Nothing is immune.
True, but I would like to prevent anything I can from happening in the name of longevity and preservation. Simple steps now could prevent bigger issues later when it comes to what I’m trying to accomplish here.
It might still be best just to convert your desktop into a couch and tv device at that point. Or a steamdeck.
I still have my desk setup for when I want to use it, but I’ve ran a HDMI cable under couches and rugs to my TV to use as well. Variety is the spice of life I guess lol. I don’t HATE playing certain things on my desktop setup, but I would much rather my couch setup if possible.
My next thing is to figure out how to use a keyboard/mouse while on the couch. Thought of making a little wooden contraption to sit over my lap with one of those bigger mouse pads glued onto it.
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There’s no way I will ever get rid of my desktop PC (and my 3DS I guess).
Also with things like Steam Deck now as well, consoles to me seem like one of the worst purchases for gaming you can make.
Modern consoles are locked pre-built PCs. You have to pay for online. Why get a console at this point in time?
Because you can buy a consol3, plig it into the back of your TV, and be confident that it will work. You don’t have to worry about system requirements, storefronts, launchers, driver updates fucking you up, etc.
Power Cable, HDMI cable, and connect to wifi - that’s it.
I’ve been PC gaming since the mid-80s, and even I sometimes just want to sit on the couch, push the Xbox button on my controller, and get going. Is it lazy? Yes. But I work 2 jobs and get to be lazy when I get home.
Another big thing for me is that I’ve worked on computers as part of my job for the last 15yrs. The last thing I wanted to do was come back home to sit again at a computer chair on another computer. Now that I work remotely, there is even less of a separation of my life since I am in my office a lot. I mentally can’t have my work station also be my gaming station, it’s just not healthy for me, I’d never move from the same place. Maybe one day when one of my laptops is old I’ll finally install steam, but for now having a switch and ps5 works wonders for the separation.
One rebuttal: Steam Deck.
Console updates and game updates are a thing. It will work, true, it just might be downloading and installing updates for a day before it does.
Not worrying about system requirements just translates into the game not being sold for your generation of the console, and requiring multiple generations of one console to enjoy both new and old titles.
The optimization of console games really is impressive. If you took the best gaming PC possible from 2005 when the 360 launched and tried to run late-gen 360 games like Tomb Raider on it, it simply wasn’t possible.
Having set hardware allowed devs to design to limitations and get a lot more performance out of the machines.
Heck - look at anything from Nintendo. I’m pretty sure my watch has more horsepower than a Switch, but Tears of the Kingdom is gorgeous.
Just want to second that. When you have predictable hardware you can do some extremely precise optimizations, timings and scheduling so you know that when a situation comes up it’ll be handled and executed the exact same way. On top of that the game will always be preconfigured so that it handles almost all situations at 60fps.
It can eek out some performance even though generally having more powerful hardware always wins.
What does that have to do with now in the age of extremely cheap, large, and fast storage.
It wasn’t just storage. A 2005 PC can’t handle TR on minimum settings. 360 handled it on what was essentially medium despite being a less powerful machine because the devs were able to optimize for that specific hardware instead of trying to guess.
You know, like they’re doing with the Steam Deck, which is absolutely a console.
I’ve been PC gaming since 8-bit computers. I eventually bought an Xbox One as my first console and a Switch some years ago. I just couldn’t get into either of them after the initial novelty wore off. PC gaming is so much more convenient for me. I’m already at my PC, I just need to start a game. And I can multi-task with other apps in the background or on my second monitor. Going to the living room to play on a console on the TV, or switching inputs if I keep it attached to my PC monitor, both are too much hassle. I only ever use the XBox for Just Dance (nothing beats Kinect for it) and I’ve played many more hours of Switch games on an emulator on my PC than on the actual Switch.
I haven’t worried about a driver update fucking something up since before win XP.
I have however repeatedly encountered crashes of games on my ps5 in the last year, which kind of defeats your point. Consoles had that worry free stability factor to them in the 90s or early 2000s, but that’s long gone.
Lol… You can do same with pc. Just needs configured 1 time… Using a linux distribution you could boot into same interface like steam deck. You can emulate the consoles too well not newest gen but who cares. You can configure the whole PC for lazy using too…
Just install one of 300 distributions of an unfamiliar operating system not designed specificallyfor you use case along with drivers for all the hardware (that you also have to learn about), learn to use the OS to the point you can actually use it, install custom software so you can install games, then hope the games work or don’t get updated with anti-cheat software that keeps you from playing.
Or just buy the “plays games” machine and play the games.
If you put Bazzite on there, it’s the “plays games” machine and plays the games. Now we’ve gotten rid of your choice paralysis. If you’ve ever used Steam Big Picture mode or a Steam Deck, it behaves exactly like that.
You’re asking a lot from the average non- computer person.
Things that are “just do this simple thing” for you are specifically what people don’t want to spend time fucking around with.
If you were buying a car with zero knowledge about cars and how they work, and the only purpose of the car was to get you from “a” to “b”, would you buy one that required you to install the engine and calibrate the timing yourself, or the one that you could get in and drive?
I think the rise of PC over console is showing that more and more people are finding it to be not that tough of a hill to climb. And reducing some hypothetical 300 distros down to 1 that’s easy is why that hill isn’t as big as you make it out to be.
The Steam Deck is a huge part of the rise, and it’s essentially a console. It’s a specific dedicated, known piece of hardware that can’t be meaningfully upgraded.
It launches into a custom OS designed for gaming using a launcher and game marketplace under the control of the manufacturer from which the manufacturer takes a 30% cut of all sales.
But that marketplace is also a PC gaming marketplace, so all its sales count as PC gaming growth.
It can, of course, run other software, but the dev mode on the Xbox lets it do the same thing. So if the deck isn’t a console, neither is the Xbox.
What nonsense. Yes, there are countless linux distributions, but of course the focus is still only on a few. These can be quickly narrowed down to how much you want to take care of the OS yourself. From arch linux to Bazitte/cachyos etc. At distrowatch.com you can also browse through the top 10. Drivers? out-of-the-box or with Nvidia 1-2 steps… even the biggest laymen can manage the changeover without any problems.
Software? Open the app store and install - done… Anti-cheat would be no problem and what a coincidence that after steamdeck has brought so much growth under Linux, publishers have thought “remove check mark and disable support, leagues that it is due to linux etc pp” which has all been refuted. Well if MS … known for their market manipulating and criminal methods… didn’t let black bags wander… without games Windows would have disappeared on private computers a long time ago…Console btw is a lie long time now… Preconfigured, extremely neutered and heavily DRM-infested PCs with no possibility of upgrading etc.
So what you’re saying is that people who aren’t interested in fucking around with Linux shouldn’t play games, even if they have absolutely zero interest in fucking around with Linux?
Let periods enjoy hobbies the way they want to. All that setup shit that’s easy for you isn’t easy for everyone, and learning more computer stuff isn’t something their interested in. They want to play a goddamned game, and they can unbox a Nintendo, plug in the game, power cable, and hdmi plug and be playing a game in less than 2 minutes.
That’s what they want. Their gaming hobby consists of playing the games. For many of us, all the setup and tinkering is part of the hobby, but we’re the outliers.
Again just Check top10 distros. There are distros with so easy GUI installation… with preinstalled packages like steam etc. So with Bazzite you have the console feeling… (Steam deck…) wanna change from desktop e.g. to the TV in the other room… Just stream it… steam link on mobile voilä the solution for people who don’t want to configure. Otherwise there is much more and also with automation… Learning more computer stuff… ? so studying for console? Cause account creation enter anything with gamepad etc is way more… Oh your paid internet yea? anyway pls pay again or you can not play online… I don’t care what you play with. But as one lie after another comes from you about PC and linux it was clear that you want to put false words in my mouth too.
You can get a steam deck then if you are worried about all of this and it would still be cheaper than console as well as portable.
The console argument just doesnt make any kind of logical sense.
A steam deck is a custom gaming device with a custom gaming OS, custom, pre-defined hardware, limited upgradability, and launches into a gaming interface for a specific company’s game store and launcher.
How is it not a console?
You answered your own question.
Set it to boot to the Linux desktop and boom, laptop with gaming formatted shell for once, with a decent steam-big-picture thing you can choose to use if you want
Or reformat the entire OS and never use that steam mode again
It’s a console in the same way a Windows laptop with the Xbox app pre installed is
You can launch custom apps on the Xbox. It’s officially supported through Dev Mode. You can even install emulators and third-party app stores.
Is the Xbox not a console now?
That’s not even close to the same thing and even you obviously know it
How is it substantially different from an everyday “I just want to play a goddamned game without jumping through hoops” perspective.
Is the person who doesn’t want to go through the trouble of activating dev mode and download an emulator or other custom software more likely to install a different operating system on their Deck?
PCs can do all of this and much more.
It’s the “and much more” that’s the problem. A console is a deli slicer where a PC is a chef’s knife.
The knife can do so much more than the deli slicer, but if you just want to slice some meat and don’t care about the rest, then the deli slicer is perfect.
Huh? This analogy is wild. Deli slicers are a specialist, commercial-level piece of equipment. It’s basically the antithesis of everything a console strives for, other than the fact that it’s a unitasker.
Deli slicer aren’t all commercial.
I have a $60 deli slicer on the counter. I also have chef’s knives that cost way more.
The knives can do everything the slicer can, but the untrained person can slice meat faster and neater with the slicer. They don’t need to k ow how to use a knife properly or how to sharpen a blade. It just works.
That’s a console. They’re cheaper than PCs that can run equivalent games for a lot of their lifespan, and they’re specialist devices that just fucking work.
But they can’t run cad, use excel, or do anything else but play games and videos just like a deli slicer can’t debone a chicken.
Besides plug and play safety as mentioned, two other cool things:
- Monthly Netflix-style rental service. For people who want to try a lot of games to find their niche, PS+ and Game Pass are great.
- Sleep mode. Being able to pause a game for days on end is incredibly convenient. PCs have attempted to have this feature, but very inconsistently, and it often means you cannot web browse when finished playing.
Sleep mode. Being able to pause a game for days on end is incredibly convenient. PCs have attempted to have this feature, but very inconsistently, and it often means you cannot web browse when finished playing.
The fuck are you smoking? My parents PC from the 90s had a sleep mode that worked exactly like a modern console’s would
PCs have all of this and much more.
Gamepass is on Windows and Linux too
I’m sorry, what? Windows yes, I used PC Game Pass for a while before swearing off Xbox. But for all its emulation advances, Linux has always had huge struggles running UWP apps, which accounts for everything on Game Pass. Even on Windows, Game Pass isn’t always the best experience compared to just using a console.
Game Pass works through streaming, unfortunately running natively is impossible due to UWP crap. But next to that there is also EA Play and Ubisoft+ as well as free games from Amazon, Epic, etc.
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Because you can just plug it in to your TV and play. That’s the target demographic.
I do that with my steam deck
Edit: I actually never bought a steam deck have a PC set up to be like one but you can just dock the steam deck and use it that way
Is a steam deck not a console?
Nah it’s a PC running Linux
I’ve thought about getting a dock for my Steam Deck, but honestly, I just either play on my desktop or Steam Deck, almost never on my TV. I also have a Switch for the TV, and I only really use it for party games.
Man i was just told pc gaming would be dead in 5 years
It’s not like there needs to be a winner here. Console or PC gaming is just a personal preference and will always coexist.
Personal preferences and experiences aside, consoles are a big source of e-waste - they come as an addition to your (presumably already existing) PC, can only be used to play certain games (you might need several different consoles to cover all of the exclusives), they can’t be upgraded and lose their relevance over time as games stop being released for older models.
consoles are a big source of e-waste
Surely pc components are an equal source of e-waste? Personally I think PC gaming is in a weird place with all the unnecessary RGB obsession and endless consumerism of upgrades.
presumably already existing
I think you’d be surprised how uninterested the average person is in owning and using a pc nowadays so we can’t easily assume that.
lose their relevance over time
Also applies to pc gaming… It’s not like consoles stop working when a new one is released.
Anyway I’m not here to argue for one or the other as they can just happily coexist.
It’s not like consoles stop working when a new one is released.
I watched a friend of mine have a progressively worse time as he tried to play all of his old Live Arcade games on his Xbox 360 in 2024.
Exactly. Consoles exist as a super low barrier to entry, value play for casual gaming. If you just want to have something on your living room tv, a console instantly achieves that, with no debugging or technical know-how required whatsoever.
I switched from a Series X to a living room gaming PC last year and absolutely adore it, but I’m also willing to spend hours tinkering with emulators, playnite, settings, etc. I actually enjoy messing with it, so this is way better for me, but I’m absolutely aware that it’s been a massive amount of fiddling to get my experience this clean and integrated, and I’ll never manage something like Quick Resume.
If you want it to “just work” absolutely go with a console. If you like to tinker, are bothered by nitpicky details, play a lot and need to cut costs, or just really care about features like higher refresh rates, and aren’t put off by a lot of settings and performance testing, then 100% go for a PC.
I have a Series S and quick resume and backward compatibility are the best features. The current generation is generally underwhelming though so I’m not surprised if pc gaming is on the rise.
There doesn’t need to be a winner, but this was a very, very slow trend over the past 20 years for one line to cross the other line, and it didn’t used to be close.
Ya consoles suck. Not a surprise. It’s always been this way.
Huh, I’m kind of surprised that’s a new thing. I would assume way more people own computers than consoles in modern times so you would think that would always mean more sales
Thoughout history a typical gaming machine could run you over $1000, game consoles often cost under $400. Consoles are very often sold as loss leaders to promote software sales, PCs are not. Oh and that’s just the cost of the box itself; a console is usually designed to attach to a television which has built-in speakers and consoles usually have at least one controller packed in. Computer monitors are sold separately as are any sound equipment. Normie PCs like Dell
InspironBasic Plus machines might come with a keyboard and mouse but gaming PCs sometimes don’t because they expect you’re going to buy premium peripherals. You’ve got a desk to put this on, right?Oh also there just isn’t much of a PC gaming culture in Japan. It may be increasing now but in the land of Nintendo, Sega and Sony they play console games.
On the other hand, a PC is good for things that aren’t gaming, like work or something.
TVs are also sold separately though if you are gonna count monitors as extra for PC, wtf. Also you literally have to pay to play online for consoles, thats a joke. Ive saved an insane amount of money by gaming on PC for decades and forgoing consoles overall and its not even close.
For most of the history of home video gaming, a television was primarily purchased for viewing broadcast, cable or satellite TV programming and/or watching movies on tape or DVD. A household that was going to buy a video game machine almost certainly already had at least one television and a game console would be one of the things attached to it. The investment would be considered already made.
That has been true of PC gaming for very small stretches of its existence; PCs have rarely worked on the living room couch so you usually set up a desk scenario with a dedicated monitor. The average PC buyer of the last 30 years would buy a monitor along with the computer.
Yes, if you have no AV equipment at all and want to get into video games you will have to buy some kind of monitor. The typical unwashed mass who has absolutely no AV equipment and wants to play video games will likely buy a Nintendo Switch because he hasn’t heard of a Steam Deck.
Your point makes the case for PC gaming, not consoles lol
I’m not sure how you arrive at that conclusion, “most people already have a TV so it’s not considered an additional purchase, a computer monitor almost always is.”
If you put yourself in the shoes of an average parent Christmas shopping for their 9 year old at some point in the last 30 years, well there’s a Playstation 2 for $299, a controller is included, a memory card is $40, and then we’ll buy 3 games for $60 each, so that’s about $520. We’ll hook it up to the living room TV we already own, it comes with the cable we need to do that, that’s all we need to buy. Or, let’s go over to the computer store and buy a gaming PC. We chose the PS2 era so ~2002, we’re looking at a Windows XP machine with probably a Pentium 4 processor, 512MB of RAM, a 256GB hard drive, a CD-RW drive and a DVD-ROM drive, plus an earlier Nvidia graphics card. Buy it from HP, Compaq, Dell or someone like that, you’re probably looking at $800 to $1000 for the PC itself, then you’re going to need to buy a computer monitor because the graphics card probably only has VGA out and your TV doesn’t have VGA in, so that’s another few hundred bucks you’re going to spend. It likely ships with a basic keyboard and mouse so you’ll get by with those.
Here’s a picture of a computer catalog circa 2000 of Pentium III grade systems advertising prices just shy of $1500 AFTER a $500 discount for a complete desktop setup, probably including the OS and probably some shovelware. And now it’s time to buy some games.
So if you started with the Playstation, you’d have to spend a thousand dollars on a television before you broke even on cost with an equivalent era gaming PC and accoutrements. Oh and you’re going to have to set up the OS and install the games you buy from CD, which has a chance of just not working at all because Windows is flaky. Oh no, that Windows 98 era game that’s still on store shelves in 2002 doesn’t work on Windows XP because of something called NT, you don’t know what that means and little Joshua is pissed. Maybe I should have just bought him a Furby.
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That said, I am a PC gamer, in fact I’m a Linux gamer. I’m typing this on my Ryzen 7700X/Radeon 7900GRE system with a 34 inch 1440p 144Hz monitor and 5.1 surround sound system. I play some hardware intensive games like Satisfactory, I also do my CAD design work on this box. It’s a vastly superior toy to any game console ever made and it’s also a profoundly useful tool.
I felt the need to reach back to the PS2 era because I don’t believe the current crop of game consoles offers the same value proposition. As I think you’re trying to point out, TV and movies nowadays are fucktrash and people are abandoning them, and it’s increasingly likely you don’t own a TV at all because why? The consoles are getting more expensive even though they are still sold as loss leaders, and their making everything they can into a subscription, they’re gonna wring the cash out of you somehow.
If someone with no AV equipment at all asked ME how to get into PC gaming, I’m gonna recommend a Steam Deck. It’s got everything you need to start playing, no accessories required, excellent UX, repairable hardware, can run LibreOffice, you can plug it into a monitor or television when/if you get one, and you don’t have to be a lizard people oligarch to afford it. Oh and at this exact moment in history it isn’t the flickering stub of a once tall candle with its successor waiting in the wings like the Nintendo Switch.
People are less likely to own a TV already these days though than they used to be so the price calculation for consoles favors them a lot less if you take that into account. Not to mention that console games tend to be more expensive than PC games, especially indie PC games now that triple A is more of a warning label than an indicator of quality.
People have been buying Madden and Call Of Duty reliably for decades now. Doesn’t matter if they’re good or cheap, there are people who identify as “a person who buys Madden and Call Of Duty.”
Those are individual games though, console games are just much more expensive on average. There isn’t as much available on the cheaper end of the market.
So? How many people bought a Switch to play Breath of the Wild and basically nothing else?
Probably very few among the people who carefully weighed which system gives them the better bang for their buck.
Nah, a lot of people just buy whatever their friends have, and only own a handful of games (Madden, FIFA, etc) and just don’t think about it.
Look at how many people can’t afford the cars they own and roll negative equity into the next one, or look at how much credit card debt people have on average. People just buy without thinking too much.
I mean yeah but you don’t need an expensive computer to play games. In the mid 2010s I spent loads of time playing games on my ~$200 something Asus netbook, and more recently I was using an old Dell Precision from 2011 I got for $25 and put a $75 GPU into from like 2018 until 2023.
I guess maybe the difference is that people who don’t buy expensive consoles or computers also don’t buy expensive games. For the most part I don’t buy things unless they have a sale for like under $30, so even though I’ve bought a lot of games I’ve probably paid less total money for games than the average console player.
Piracy is a lot more accessible on PCs than consoles
Piracy doesn’t really decrease sales though, in fact it might increase them since it generates word of mouth from people who wouldn’t have bought it.
How about we equate the nebulous uncertainty of those claims, since piracy arguments never have reliable motivator data.
“Piracy might not decrease sales. In fact it might increase them.”
Here’s a source on that claim. The uncertainty here is due to the large margin of error, so the takeaway is that it likely has no effect, or perhaps a small positive effect.
Here’s the claim:
the study estimates that for every 100 games that are downloaded illegally, players actually legally obtain 24 more games (including free games) than they would in a world in which piracy didn’t exist.
…
points out a number of caveats for this headline number, not least of which is a 45-percent error margin that makes the results less than statistically significant (i.e. indistinguishable from noise). That said, the same study finds that piracy has the more-expected negative effects on sales of films and books (and a neutral effect on music), singling out games as one area where piracy really does seem to work differently.
The gargantuan margin of error there basically means it’s no different from the nebulous phrasing I put.
No, it means we need a better study.
If i count all the media I’ve consumed in the last 8-9 years as savings, piracy has paid the price of my 1000$
entertainment consolePC so, so many times over.
I call BS on this. This is only true if you include gambling proceeds like CS skins, etc.
We’ve been able to measure it in games like Elden Ring and Guilty Gear Strive. Games that traditionally didn’t have PC ports until long after the console versions, because they were seen as genres that only did well on consoles.
I don’t know, I only got into PC gaming about 3 years ago but my library is easily twice as large as it was when I only had consoles for about 20 years. The initial cost of getting a PC with all the peripherals is quite a bit higher than console but the games are almost always significantly cheaper. The most recent AAA games and some studios like FromSoft are usually the only games selling at $70. On console, the price of a game barely gets lowered. I have a switch and wanted to buy overcooked to play on the go and it’s still $20 dollars and has very few sales. On PC it’s hard not to find it for less than $5 and that’s not even counting key shops.
I’m not really surprised, you do not need the latest computer to play the latest games.
I can play almost any game released on low settings with an rx 470. I admit the games will not run at high fps, but they are still playable.
So think of all the people who live in poorer countries that still have access to older hardware but can’t afford a ps5. Especially with regional pricing for games.
Awwww shi 470 gang
There’s no way to trade loot boxes between players but there’s gambling on consoles in the same way as on PC. Even if you count Steam Marketplace transactions fee there’s definitely plenty of EA Football Club players on consoles offsetting this.
I had forgotten about EA. What has gaming become…
Can you get the money out on console though? I think that’s what ultimately makes it gambling and why people are giving Valve shit about it, because you can trade in-game items for money using unofficial platforms (that go against the TOS, but are still out there)
To me it’s gambling even if you can’t exchange it for currency because the things players are gambling on have worth to them and psychological mechanism is exactly the same. If the law didn’t catch up in some place yet it doesn’t make it any less wrong.
